D-Day - 75th Anniversary

[Not a cat 5652]

On 6/10/2019 at 2:31 PM, Onboard 2.0 said:

When you stand there on the beach listening to the docent talk about what was waiting for these kids before they waded ashore, and you see the size of the beach, and realize that they were caught in multiple cross fields of fire it gives you a hard knot in your stomach just wondering if, and how you would have handled the situation.

Oh I'm pretty sure how I would have handled the situation, and it would have been pretty damn pathetic.  I can't even imagine having the balls to do what those guys did.

[Parliament 14244]

June 6 today.  While your standing in line for your soy latte today, complaining about how slow it's moving, remember there were men on Normandy Beach just hoping to make it 100 yards.

[TwiceHorn 31439]

On 6/8/2019 at 9:00 AM, Chad Fuck said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flak_Bait

https://www.airspacemag.com/airspacemag/hundreds-holes-iflak-baiti-180954662/
 

 

 

 

I don't all of a sudden have the most intense case of occupation-envy.

[Hate 20106]

1 hour ago, Parliament said:

June 6 today.  While your standing in line for your soy latte today, complaining about how slow it's moving, remember there were men on Normandy Beach just hoping to make it 100 yards.

I don't know how those guys got out of those boats or jumped out of those planes with the set of balls they all had. 

[TwiceHorn 31439]

On 6/8/2021 at 1:38 PM, AUS-97HORN said:

 

And. less than a year later, BB-35 fulfilled a similar role on the other side of the world at Iwo Jima and Okinawa.

And another story of more active naval involvement and heroism at D-Day. https://www.usni.org/magazines/naval-history-magazine/2004/june/gallant-destroyers-d-day

[BabaYaga 15288]

On 6/6/2021 at 3:43 PM, Sbbruin said:

Started this yesterday.

 

Every one of the books on WWII written by Ambrose are phenomenal.  If you want to get into the weeds about all the cloak & dagger stuff leading up to the invasion, ready "Bodyguard of Lies" 

[Vegas64 673]

3 hours ago, Parliament said:

June 6 today.  While your standing in line for your soy latte today, complaining about how slow it's moving, remember there were men on Normandy Beach just hoping to make it 100 yards.

It remains the largest amphibious military invasion in history.

If you’re ever feeling stressed out, consider the pressure on Dwight D. Eisenhower, who was overseeing the operation: He smoked four packs of Camel cigarettes per day in the lead-up to D-Day. (The future president later quit by filling his pockets with cigarettes and handing them out to other smokers, which gave him a feeling of accomplishment.)

[Poe It Up 126]

49 minutes ago, Vegas64 said:

It remains the largest amphibious military invasion in history.

If you’re ever feeling stressed out, consider the pressure on Dwight D. Eisenhower, who was overseeing the operation: He smoked four packs of Camel cigarettes per day in the lead-up to D-Day. (The future president later quit by filling his pockets with cigarettes and handing them out to other smokers, which gave him a feeling of accomplishment.)

And playing… (cough) cards (cough) with Kay Summersby. I just finished The Guns at Last Light: The War in Western Europe, 1944-45 by Rick Atkinson. Ike’s thinking during that time is very detailed and accompanied by some analysis from Atkinson. I recommend the entire trilogy, actually. 

[Sbbruin 21829]

2 hours ago, Hate said:

I don't know how those guys got out of those boats or jumped out of those planes with the set of balls they all had. 

Yeah, I'm not sure which would've have been worse.  The Higgins boats get all the attention on D-Day, but the paratrooper drops just prior were just as fucking harrowing and gnarly.  

[Sbbruin 21829]

1 hour ago, Vegas64 said:

It remains the largest amphibious military invasion in history.

If you’re ever feeling stressed out, consider the pressure on Dwight D. Eisenhower, who was overseeing the operation: He smoked four packs of Camel cigarettes per day in the lead-up to D-Day. (The future president later quit by filling his pockets with cigarettes and handing them out to other smokers, which gave him a feeling of accomplishment.)

He knew he was sending thousands to their deaths.  But knew that there was no victory in Europe without an established landing point.  The real stress came from wondering what happens if it fails?  But that's why he threw every single thing he had at it.  It couldn't fail.  It had to succeed.

[BabaYaga 15288]

1 hour ago, Vegas64 said:

It remains the largest amphibious military invasion in history.

If you’re ever feeling stressed out, consider the pressure on Dwight D. Eisenhower, who was overseeing the operation: He smoked four packs of Camel cigarettes per day in the lead-up to D-Day. (The future president later quit by filling his pockets with cigarettes and handing them out to other smokers, which gave him a feeling of accomplishment.)

Okinawa was damn close, and they didn't have a staging area a few miles away with the benefit of deception and having Kamikaze planes flying themselves into ships.  both were insanely heroic and wild.  

[BabaYaga 15288]

7 minutes ago, Sbbruin said:

Yeah, I'm not sure which would've have been worse.  The Higgins boats get all the attention on D-Day, but the paratrooper drops just prior were just as fucking harrowing and gnarly.  

The scattered and disbursed chaos of airmen landing all over the place created the unintended positive consequence of creating chaos with the Germans who were getting notices of men all over the place.  Giving the impression that the size of the of the forces were much larger and more coordinated.  Caused the Germans to hold positions and bought precious time for those guys on the beach.  

[Sbbruin 21829]

Just now, BabaYaga said:

The scattered and disbursed chaos of airmen landing all over the place created the unintended positive consequence of creating chaos with the Germans who were getting notices of men all over the place.  Giving the impression that the size of the of the forces were much larger and more coordinated.  Caused the Germans to hold positions and bought precious time for those guys on the beach.  

Exactly.  But they weren't able to provide the coordinated rear attack they'd hoped for.  But it worked out.

[BabaYaga 15288]

Just now, Sbbruin said:

Exactly.  But they weren't able to provide the coordinated rear attack they'd hoped for.  But it worked out.

Watching BOB or SPR you get the central tenet that Ambrose posited about the true "secret" to the efficacy of US soldiers:  their ability to execute, coordinate attacks, and act autonomously as small units amidst the chaos of the battlefield.  Juxtapose this to the centralized command structure of the German leadership.  Night and day

[RockyMountainHighHorn 890]

I was fascinated this morning while watching a doc and learning about the damn balloon bombs we used to protect the boats. Was amazing to learn that they were manned by all African American units, was sadly something not taught in my history classes. Just as bad we’re probably the lightpole with a mine on top boat killers. Brilliant, deadly wild ideas…

Edited June 6, 2022 by RockyMountainHighHorn

[FartingMonk 3606]

Now if you had to choose would you have rather done one landing in Normandy or be a marine in the Pacific and every attack was a beach landing?  I think I would have chosen to do my one in Normandy 

[Captainant 27637]

25 minutes ago, FartingMonk said:

Now if you had to choose would you have rather done one landing in Normandy or be a marine in the Pacific and every attack was a beach landing?  I think I would have chosen to do my one in Normandy 

The landings weren't always a meat grinder in the Pacific. Sometimes the Japanese defenders would let the marines land and stage on the beach unmolested only to open fire with already sighted in artillery once fully committed.

If it's just the landing and not the following fighting, the Pacific is better odds IMO

[BabaYaga 15288]

1 hour ago, FartingMonk said:

Now if you had to choose would you have rather done one landing in Normandy or be a marine in the Pacific and every attack was a beach landing?  I think I would have chosen to do my one in Normandy 

Not even close.  Normandy and the European Theatre all day every day.  Many of the Marine invasions were every bit as bloody as Normandy.  

Put it this way.  Give me BOB and the Battle of the Bulge over Okinawa any day.  

Which were all just minor skirmishes leading up to what would have been the largest loss of American life in any war ever:  the invasion of mainland Japan.  

[TwiceHorn 31439]

56 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Not even close.  Normandy and the European Theatre all day every day.  Many of the Marine invasions were every bit as bloody as Normandy.  

Put it this way.  Give me BOB and the Battle of the Bulge over Okinawa any day.  

Which were all just minor skirmishes leading up to what would have been the largest loss of American life in any war ever:  the invasion of mainland Japan.  

One of the things that people (I) fail to consider is that in the European invasion, behind the lines, there was at least civilization:  shelter, food, beds.  Hell, jolly old England was an hours flight away most of the time.

On the Pacific islands, there were tents.  And mud, and rats, and crabs, and heat, and shitty food.  And often, the rear areas were built up on a muddy battlefield full of corpses. And the rear areas were still subject to attack because islands are small. Shit that made a hammock on a liberty ship look like paradise, because that was the real rear area.

The cold versus the heat is a real Hobson's choice, though.

 

Edited June 7, 2022 by TwiceHorn

[Chad Fuck 17659]

One of the things that people (I) fail to consider is that in the European invasion, behind the lines, there was at least civilization:  shelter, food, beds.  Hell, jolly old England was an hours flight away most of the time.
On the Pacific islands, there were tents.  And mud, and rats, and crabs, and heat, and shitty food.  And often, the rear areas were built up on a muddy battlefield full of corpses. And the rear areas were still subject to attack because islands are small. Shit that made a hammock on a liberty ship look like paradise, because that was the real rear area.
The cold versus the heat is a real Hobson's choice, though.
 

Don’t forget all the biting insects and tropical diseases.

[Capt. Squints 176]

9 minutes ago, Chad Fuck said:

Don’t forget all the biting insects and tropical diseases.

And don't forget the Japs. A cruel and worthy adversary. I would take the European theater over the PTO any day. If I had been captured by the enemy(which was likely considering my slow ass) I would rather take my chances with the Hun, Malmedy notwithstanding.

[BabaYaga 15288]

21 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

One of the things that people (I) fail to consider is that in the European invasion, behind the lines, there was at least civilization:  shelter, food, beds.  Hell, jolly old England was an hours flight away most of the time.

On the Pacific islands, there were tents.  And mud, and rats, and crabs, and heat, and shitty food.  And often, the rear areas were built up on a muddy battlefield full of corpses. And the rear areas were still subject to attack because islands are small. Shit that made a hammock on a liberty ship look like paradise, because that was the real rear area.

The cold versus the heat is a real Hobson's choice, though.

 

Layer on the absolute fanatical nature of the Japanese soldiers.  It was wild.  Re-listening to Carlin's "Supernova in the East" series on the campaign.  Almost superhuman what those guys endured.  Soldiers in the Philippines decades later still fighting and killing people.  

The landings at Tarawa.  Think the opening scene from SPR, but a few hundred yards off the beach because they failed to account for the coral reefs and guys had to wade in chest/waist deep water while being bracketed with coordinated machine gun and mortar/artillery fire.  

The jungle fighting in Guadalcanal, Borneo, or Saipan.  The mountain/cliff fighting of Iwo and Okinawa.  Just wild shit.  

Then later you have the civilian aspect that wasn't really a part of the EU theatre.  Banzai charges being led by civilians as fodder strapped down with explosives that would detonate upon impact.  People throwing themselves off cliffs and in the ocean.  Civilians training with bamboo spears because they were told the Americans would "eat" them if captured.  

The Bataan Death March.  Nothing else needs to be said about that. 

[BabaYaga 15288]

2 minutes ago, Capt. Squints said:

And don't forget the Japs. A cruel and worthy adversary. I would take the European theater over the PTO any day. If I had been captured by the enemy(which was likely considering my slow ass) I would rather take my chances with the Hun, Malmedy notwithstanding.

Give me Malmady over the death marches and beheading & bayonet "practice" utilized by the officers to "raise morale"

[BabaYaga 15288]

26 minutes ago, Chad Fuck said:

Don’t forget all the biting insects and tropical diseases.

Didn't Malaria account for more casualties on both sides than all other forms of casualties combined (artillery, small arms, etc.)?

[Chad Fuck 17659]

22 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Didn't Malaria account for more casualties on both sides than all other forms of casualties combined (artillery, small arms, etc.)?

I don't know.  Sounds truthy though.

[Capt. Squints 176]

7 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Give me Malmady over the death marches and beheading & bayonet "practice" utilized by the officers to "raise morale"

For sure. My family ( I was born and raised in Mobile, Al) was close with Eugene Sledge author of With The Old Breed: At Peleliu and Okinawa. His pal, Sidney Phillips lived across the street from me growing up. Dr. Phillips would speak a bit about his experience on Guadalcanal. Sledge kept it all in until he wrote one of the definitive books about the war in the Pacific. Anyway /csb.

[BabaYaga 15288]

10 minutes ago, Capt. Squints said:

For sure. My family ( I was born and raised in Mobile, Al) was close with Eugene Sledge author of With The Old Breed: At Peleliu and Okinawa. His pal, Sidney Phillips lived across the street from me growing up. Dr. Phillips would speak a bit about his experience on Guadalcanal. Sledge kept it all in until he wrote one of the definitive books about the war in the Pacific. Anyway /csb.

That's wild!  After a Jocko podcast I read his book.  Amazing read.  Then circling back to the Pacific series, Jesus man....what those guys endured.  Both fronts were so wild and had MASSIVE intel failures that got so many guys kiled.  Missing the atoll reefs, bad reads on tides, or the entire hedgerow campaign that were coordinated killing fields for the Germans.  Damn.  

[Chad Fuck 17659]

13 minutes ago, Capt. Squints said:

For sure. My family ( I was born and raised in Mobile, Al) was close with Eugene Sledge author of With The Old Breed: At Peleliu and Okinawa. His pal, Sidney Phillips lived across the street from me growing up. Dr. Phillips would speak a bit about his experience on Guadalcanal. Sledge kept it all in until he wrote one of the definitive books about the war in the Pacific. Anyway /csb.

I've suggested Sledge's book in just about every conversation I've ever had about the Pacific.  The best first person account of the war in the Pacific, hands down.

[Capt. Squints 176]

44 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

That's wild!  After a Jocko podcast I read his book.  Amazing read.  Then circling back to the Pacific series, Jesus man....what those guys endured.  Both fronts were so wild and had MASSIVE intel failures that got so many guys kiled.  Missing the atoll reefs, bad reads on tides, or the entire hedgerow campaign that were coordinated killing fields for the Germans.  Damn.  

And some of those Pacific battles weren't even necessary. Peleliu for instance could have been bypassed. The Tarawa landing was a total cluster.

 

[Ag with kids 581]

On 6/6/2022 at 7:43 AM, TwiceHorn said:

And. less than a year later, BB-35 fulfilled a similar role on the other side of the world at Iwo Jima and Okinawa.

And another story of more active naval involvement and heroism at D-Day. https://www.usni.org/magazines/naval-history-magazine/2004/june/gallant-destroyers-d-day

 

[ocugolf 1214]

Grandfather was on Omaha beach.  Enlisted at 17.  He was one of 5 from his boat to the shore.  Never talked about it until the last 5 years of his life and then it was all he would talk about.  I'd give anything to listen to those stories again.  When he died, we were cleaning out a storage locker, my grandmother had kept every letter my grandfather sent her and his mother from the war.  Talk about humbling.  I can't imagine the sacrifice.  RIP Papa. 

[BillyGoatHill 4312]

1 hour ago, BabaYaga said:

 

The landings at Tarawa.  Think the opening scene from SPR, but a few hundred yards off the beach because they failed to account for the coral reefs and guys had to wade in chest/waist deep water while being bracketed with coordinated machine gun and mortar/artillery fire.  

The jungle fighting in Guadalcanal, Borneo, or Saipan.  The mountain/cliff fighting of Iwo and Okinawa.  Just wild shit.  

 

 

11 minutes ago, Capt. Squints said:

And some of those Pacific battles weren't even necessary. Peleliu for instance could have been bypassed. The Tarawa landing. was a total cluster.

 

I had 3 great Uncles that fought in the Pacific. Guiseppe (Pep) was a Seabee that ran heavy equipment in building the runways. Though the islands were deemed "secure" enough for them to repair or construct, his unit saw heavy counter-attacks throughout the war. Unfortunately, I do not know what islands he worked on positively. I think the first was Guadacanal and Henderson Field.

Uncle George was a Sergeant in the Marines and also saw heavy contact, and he would tell wild stories of fighting the Japanese in jungle warfare. In one invasion his Higgins boat was badly damaged/sinking far from shore and those that survived ditched their equipment/heavy packs, otherwise they would have drowned (as in SPR) before getting to shore. He had a Gunney Sgt. in  his boat, that had pulled his KBar out and started cutting straps once the boat started sinking, those that followed his lead made it in and or were picked up after the battle by a US Submarine.

I have told the last Uncle's story in more detail in the Memorial day Forum. Uncle Jasper (Bunch), named after his grandfather who had been a Lieutenant in the Confederate Cavalry, was the youngest and didn't need to serve but wanted to be like his older brothers. In the 3rd Marine Division, he took part in the fighting on Guam, and then later his 21st Marines were called in on Iwo after heavy casualties to the 4th and 5th marine Divisions. He was killed the day following the flag raising while his company took part in the attack on the second airfield (the one still in use today). 

For the comments quoted, Peleliu definitely could have have and should have been bypassed. This was admitted many years later by the Navy. same argument could be made for the Phillipines. Nimitz wanted Formosa (Taiwan), but in the long run, Roosevelt sided with MacArthur's plan, allowing him to fulfill his promise of "I shall return".

Tarawa, a success overall, but a costly experience.

Like said before, the coral reef surrounded the island over 500 yards offshore and there was a pier that ran out past it that the Japanese had manned with pillboxes. The navy had studied the tide table but there was conclusion (wrongful) that there would be enough water above the reef (5' was needed) but obviously the neap tide that happened, was not.

I saw a documentary many years ago that the tide was especially lower than normal due to a lunar anomaly that only happens like once every 40 years. This was discovered like in the 80's or 90's. Of course, it had to happen on the day of the invasion. The boats and amphibs ran aground. Marines waded thru chest deep water, 500 yards under fire, or moved to the pier and fought their way while taking heavy casualties. It would have been worse, but on the first day, while receiving the heavy Naval bombardment, the communication lines from the command bunker were cut ( they were dug shallow due to the heavy coral) and Admiral Shibazaki, while moving himself and his command staff to another location to better direct the battle, were caught in the open and killed by by a naval shell. Two days of still heavy fighting would follow, but the Japanese had no coordinated plan for counter-attacks once he was killed.

After the battle, the public was stunned by the casualties and wanted Nimitz and other commanders replaced. Roosevelt knew that costs would be high and stuck with them though. There was a Marine photography crew there with the first Marines on shore and recorded the battle. Roosevelt, knowing the cost that the war would take, had the film showed to the public so the true cost of the war and what it would take to win, and thus also help sell war bonds. The film "With the Marines at Tarawa" shows bloated, dead Marines floating along the shorelines. It's one of the few films that actually shows the enemy within yards of and being fired upon by the Marines. It's on youtube and just under 20 minutes long (worth the watch).

Others have talked about being in Normandy or in the Pacific during WWII and which would be worse.

One thing that would've made it better for the Normandy invasion, and especially at Omaha, would have been something that the Navy had and used in the Pacific. There was much rivalry and fighting for dollars between the services (Army/Navy at that time, as Marines were/still are a branch to the Navy and the Air Corps falling under the Army) back then as now, and they didn't share or lend equipment very well to the other branch. Normandy was an Army invasion and had no amphibious tracked vehicles (which had some ground support capability with heavy machine guns) which would have helped at Omaha. Out of the 20 something Sherman DD tanks that were to support and provide heavy fire support for the infantry there, only six made it ashore. The rest were swamped and lost (along with their crews) by the 6 ft + seas, having been put to to sea 6 miles out. The amphibious tracks that the navy and Marines used successfully in the Pacific could have helped in this scenario. The Army only had the use of Higgins boats and LSTs in Europe.

last thing....CSB/

Growing up in awe of my Uncles and their service, (Dad was also in the Navy) I grew up being an avid reader of WWII. Just about everything I read growing up regarded military history.

Freshman year (really ONLY yr) of college '81, we had an assignment in history class of 3 book reviews/reports for part of mid-terms. Your choice of books.

One that I did was on the invasion of Tarawa. History was easy for me and upon getting the grades back (A's on all) there was a note at the bottom of the Tarawa report. The professor had written "Great report,...by the way, I was there". 

It turned out that we lived in the same neighborhood north of SA and I had other discussions with him about his service as a Marine in WWII. Besides what he wrote on my report, one thing that always stuck with me, was that he had seen a lot of combat even after Tarawa and he knew late in the war that it was just going to be the next landing or maybe the one after where he wasn't going to make it.

His division, along with others, was tasked for and sailing to Japan for the invasion when the bombs were dropped. He knew and told me, "Those bombs saved my life".

 

[BabaYaga 15288]

9 minutes ago, BillyGoatHill said:

 

I had 3 great Uncles that fought in the Pacific. Guiseppe (Pep) was a Seabee that ran heavy equipment in building the runways. Though the islands were deemed "secure" enough for them to repair or construct, his unit saw heavy counter-attacks throughout the war. Unfortunately, I do not know what islands he worked on positively. I think the first was Guadacanal and Henderson Field.

Uncle George was a Sergeant in the Marines and also saw heavy contact, and he would tell wild stories of fighting the Japanese in jungle warfare. In one invasion his Higgins boat was badly damaged/sinking far from shore and those that survived ditched their equipment/heavy packs, otherwise they would have drowned (as in SPR) before getting to shore. He had a Gunney Sgt. in  his boat, that had pulled his KBar out and started cutting straps once the boat started sinking, those that followed his lead made it in and or were picked up after the battle by a US Submarine.

I have told the last Uncle's story in more detail in the Memorial day Forum. Uncle Jasper (Bunch), named after his grandfather who had been a Lieutenant in the Confederate Cavalry, was the youngest and didn't need to serve but wanted to be like his older brothers. In the 3rd Marine Division, he took part in the fighting on Guam, and then later his 21st Marines were called in on Iwo after heavy casualties to the 4th and 5th marine Divisions. He was killed the day following the flag raising while his company took part in the attack on the second airfield (the one still in use today). 

For the comments quoted, Peleliu definitely could have have and should have been bypassed. This was admitted many years later by the Navy. same argument could be made for the Phillipines. Nimitz wanted Formosa (Taiwan), but in the long run, Roosevelt sided with MacArthur's plan, allowing him to fulfill his promise of "I shall return".

Tarawa, a success overall, but a costly experience.

Like said before, the coral reef surrounded the island over 500 yards offshore and there was a pier that ran out past it that the Japanese had manned with pillboxes. The navy had studied the tide table but there was conclusion (wrongful) that there would be enough water above the reef (5' was needed) but obviously the neap tide that happened, was not.

I saw a documentary many years ago that the tide was especially lower than normal due to a lunar anomaly that only happens like once every 40 years. This was discovered like in the 80's or 90's. Of course, it had to happen on the day of the invasion. The boats and amphibs ran aground. Marines waded thru chest deep water, 500 yards under fire, or moved to the pier and fought their way while taking heavy casualties. It would have been worse, but on the first day, while receiving the heavy Naval bombardment, the communication lines from the command bunker were cut ( they were dug shallow due to the heavy coral) and Admiral Shibazaki, while moving himself and his command staff to another location to better direct the battle, were caught in the open and killed by by a naval shell. Two days of still heavy fighting would follow, but the Japanese had no coordinated plan for counter-attacks once he was killed.

After the battle, the public was stunned by the casualties and wanted Nimitz and other commanders replaced. Roosevelt knew that costs would be high and stuck with them though. There was a Marine photography crew there with the first Marines on shore and recorded the battle. Roosevelt, knowing the cost that the war would take, had the film showed to the public so the true cost of the war and what it would take to win, and thus also help sell war bonds. The film "With the Marines at Tarawa" shows bloated, dead Marines floating along the shorelines. It's one of the few films that actually shows the enemy within yards of and being fired upon by the Marines. It's on youtube and just under 20 minutes long (worth the watch).

Others have talked about being in Normandy or in the Pacific during WWII and which would be worse.

One thing that would've made it better for the Normandy invasion, and especially at Omaha, would have been something that the Navy had and used in the Pacific. There was much rivalry and fighting for dollars between the services (Army/Navy at that time, as Marines were/still are a branch to the Navy and the Air Corps falling under the Army) back then as now, and they didn't share or lend equipment very well to the other branch. Normandy was an Army invasion and had no amphibious tracked vehicles (which had some ground support capability with heavy machine guns) which would have helped at Omaha. Out of the 20 something Sherman DD tanks that were to support and provide heavy fire support for the infantry there, only six made it ashore. The rest were swamped and lost (along with their crews) by the 6 ft + seas, having been put to to sea 6 miles out. The amphibious tracks that the navy and Marines used successfully in the Pacific could have helped in this scenario. The Army only had the use of Higgins boats and LSTs in Europe.

last thing....CSB/

Growing up in awe of my Uncles and their service, (Dad was also in the Navy) I grew up being an avid reader of WWII. Just about everything I read growing up regarded military history.

Freshman year (really ONLY yr) of college '81, we had an assignment in history class of 3 book reviews/reports for part of mid-terms. Your choice of books.

One that I did was on the invasion of Tarawa. History was easy for me and upon getting the grades back (A's on all) there was a note at the bottom of the Tarawa report. The professor had written "Great report,...by the way, I was there". 

It turned out that we lived in the same neighborhood north of SA and I had other discussions with him about his service as a Marine in WWII. Besides what he wrote on my report, one thing that always stuck with me, was that he had seen a lot of combat even after Tarawa and he knew late in the war that it was just going to be the next landing or maybe the one after where he wasn't going to make it.

His division, along with others, was tasked for and sailing to Japan for the invasion when the bombs were dropped. He knew and told me, "Those bombs saved my life".

 

That's amazing.  Thanks for sharing and the insight.  Can you imagine the carnage had a landing on mainland Japan been carried out....

[BabaYaga 15288]

1 hour ago, ocugolf said:

Grandfather was on Omaha beach.  Enlisted at 17.  He was one of 5 from his boat to the shore.  Never talked about it until the last 5 years of his life and then it was all he would talk about.  I'd give anything to listen to those stories again.  When he died, we were cleaning out a storage locker, my grandmother had kept every letter my grandfather sent her and his mother from the war.  Talk about humbling.  I can't imagine the sacrifice.  RIP Papa. 

That's awesome.  My grandfather was a rancher and a carpenter and got stationed building barracks for the soldiers all across Texas and never left the states.  He later built the home my father grew up in and the church they attended services at in Coleman.  Those old guys were amazing.  

[BillyGoatHill 4312]

26 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

That's amazing.  Thanks for sharing and the insight.  Can you imagine the carnage had a landing on mainland Japan been carried out....

Original estimations were 1 million US casualties with the war not ending until at least late 1946. 

People can argue all they want, but those bombs saved lives on both sides. While not a single bomb, the CONTINUED fire bombing of Tokyo with incendiaries AFTER both were dropped was just as devastating.

The bombs ( fat man/ little boy) being used then, I feel has also been a great deterrent in them not being used again. 🤞

[Jkwellborn 6691]

I had 3 great Uncles that fought in the Pacific. Guiseppe (Pep) was a Seabee that ran heavy equipment in building the runways. Though the islands were deemed "secure" enough for them to repair or construct, his unit saw heavy counter-attacks throughout the war. Unfortunately, I do not know what islands he worked on positively. I think the first was Guadacanal and Henderson Field.
Uncle George was a Sergeant in the Marines and also saw heavy contact, and he would tell wild stories of fighting the Japanese in jungle warfare. In one invasion his Higgins boat was badly damaged/sinking far from shore and those that survived ditched their equipment/heavy packs, otherwise they would have drowned (as in SPR) before getting to shore. He had a Gunney Sgt. in  his boat, that had pulled his KBar out and started cutting straps once the boat started sinking, those that followed his lead made it in and or were picked up after the battle by a US Submarine.
I have told the last Uncle's story in more detail in the Memorial day Forum. Uncle Jasper (Bunch), named after his grandfather who had been a Lieutenant in the Confederate Cavalry, was the youngest and didn't need to serve but wanted to be like his older brothers. In the 3rd Marine Division, he took part in the fighting on Guam, and then later his 21st Marines were called in on Iwo after heavy casualties to the 4th and 5th marine Divisions. He was killed the day following the flag raising while his company took part in the attack on the second airfield (the one still in use today). 
For the comments quoted, Peleliu definitely could have have and should have been bypassed. This was admitted many years later by the Navy. same argument could be made for the Phillipines. Nimitz wanted Formosa (Taiwan), but in the long run, Roosevelt sided with MacArthur's plan, allowing him to fulfill his promise of "I shall return".
Tarawa, a success overall, but a costly experience.
Like said before, the coral reef surrounded the island over 500 yards offshore and there was a pier that ran out past it that the Japanese had manned with pillboxes. The navy had studied the tide table but there was conclusion (wrongful) that there would be enough water above the reef (5' was needed) but obviously the neap tide that happened, was not.
I saw a documentary many years ago that the tide was especially lower than normal due to a lunar anomaly that only happens like once every 40 years. This was discovered like in the 80's or 90's. Of course, it had to happen on the day of the invasion. The boats and amphibs ran aground. Marines waded thru chest deep water, 500 yards under fire, or moved to the pier and fought their way while taking heavy casualties. It would have been worse, but on the first day, while receiving the heavy Naval bombardment, the communication lines from the command bunker were cut ( they were dug shallow due to the heavy coral) and Admiral Shibazaki, while moving himself and his command staff to another location to better direct the battle, were caught in the open and killed by by a naval shell. Two days of still heavy fighting would follow, but the Japanese had no coordinated plan for counter-attacks once he was killed.
After the battle, the public was stunned by the casualties and wanted Nimitz and other commanders replaced. Roosevelt knew that costs would be high and stuck with them though. There was a Marine photography crew there with the first Marines on shore and recorded the battle. Roosevelt, knowing the cost that the war would take, had the film showed to the public so the true cost of the war and what it would take to win, and thus also help sell war bonds. The film "With the Marines at Tarawa" shows bloated, dead Marines floating along the shorelines. It's one of the few films that actually shows the enemy within yards of and being fired upon by the Marines. It's on youtube and just under 20 minutes long (worth the watch).
Others have talked about being in Normandy or in the Pacific during WWII and which would be worse.
One thing that would've made it better for the Normandy invasion, and especially at Omaha, would have been something that the Navy had and used in the Pacific. There was much rivalry and fighting for dollars between the services (Army/Navy at that time, as Marines were/still are a branch to the Navy and the Air Corps falling under the Army) back then as now, and they didn't share or lend equipment very well to the other branch. Normandy was an Army invasion and had no amphibious tracked vehicles (which had some ground support capability with heavy machine guns) which would have helped at Omaha. Out of the 20 something Sherman DD tanks that were to support and provide heavy fire support for the infantry there, only six made it ashore. The rest were swamped and lost (along with their crews) by the 6 ft + seas, having been put to to sea 6 miles out. The amphibious tracks that the navy and Marines used successfully in the Pacific could have helped in this scenario. The Army only had the use of Higgins boats and LSTs in Europe.
last thing....CSB/
Growing up in awe of my Uncles and their service, (Dad was also in the Navy) I grew up being an avid reader of WWII. Just about everything I read growing up regarded military history.
Freshman year (really ONLY yr) of college '81, we had an assignment in history class of 3 book reviews/reports for part of mid-terms. Your choice of books.
One that I did was on the invasion of Tarawa. History was easy for me and upon getting the grades back (A's on all) there was a note at the bottom of the Tarawa report. The professor had written "Great report,...by the way, I was there". 
It turned out that we lived in the same neighborhood north of SA and I had other discussions with him about his service as a Marine in WWII. Besides what he wrote on my report, one thing that always stuck with me, was that he had seen a lot of combat even after Tarawa and he knew late in the war that it was just going to be the next landing or maybe the one after where he wasn't going to make it.
His division, along with others, was tasked for and sailing to Japan for the invasion when the bombs were dropped. He knew and told me, "Those bombs saved my life".
 

That’s pretty bad ass.

[BillyGoatHill 4312]

37 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

That's awesome.  My grandfather was a rancher and a carpenter and got stationed building barracks for the soldiers all across Texas and never left the states.  He later built the home my father grew up in and the church they attended services at in Coleman.  Those old guys were amazing.  

Being in the military in the early 80's and stationed at or TDY to multiple places throughout the state, I bet I stayed in some of your Grandad's accommodations. 

[BabaYaga 15288]

15 minutes ago, BillyGoatHill said:

Being in the military in the early 80's and stationed at or TDY to multiple places throughout the state, I bet I stayed in some of your Grandad's accommodations. 

I know Bowie near Brownwood was one of them.  Not sure of the others.  

[Trey3216 15345]

45 minutes ago, BillyGoatHill said:

Original estimations were 1 million US casualties with the war not ending until at least late 1946. 

People can argue all they want, but those bombs saved lives on both sides. While not a single bomb, the CONTINUED fire bombing of Tokyo with incendiaries AFTER both were dropped was just as devastating.

The bombs ( fat man/ little boy) being used then, I feel has also been a great deterrent in them not being used again. 🤞

Yep.  I'd venture it would/could have been double that in American lives and into the tens or twenties of millions of Japanese lives lost.  Neither the US or Japan would have become the powerful nations we are now had that invasion taken place.  

[4th and 5 4914]

9 hours ago, FartingMonk said:

Now if you had to choose would you have rather done one landing in Normandy or be a marine in the Pacific and every attack was a beach landing?  I think I would have chosen to do my one in Normandy 

Normandy >>> Tarawa, Peleliu, Iwo, Okinawa, Guadalcanal, Saipan for all the above reasons, great posts by the way

check out

[Hpara759 1778]

2 hours ago, BabaYaga said:

I know Bowie near Brownwood was one of them.  Not sure of the others.  

near?

[Harrison Bergeron 1798]

5 hours ago, Ag with kids said:

 

As as WWI buff, I am embarrassed that I did not realize until a few months ago she was the last one.

I cannot fathom the courage it took to enter those boats for Normandy.

[Chad Fuck 17659]

2 hours ago, BillyGoatHill said:

Original estimations were 1 million US casualties with the war not ending until at least late 1946. 

People can argue all they want, but those bombs saved lives on both sides. While not a single bomb, the CONTINUED fire bombing of Tokyo with incendiaries AFTER both were dropped was just as devastating.

The bombs ( fat man/ little boy) being used then, I feel has also been a great deterrent in them not being used again. 🤞

I saw an article saying that as the generation that actually used the bomb - and was hit by it - fades, we are seeing people more bellicose about using nukes.  I'm not sure I buy that completely.  But we certainly need to freely share pics of Hiroshima, Nagasaki and the survivors.  

[Chad Fuck 17659]

5 hours ago, Ag with kids said:

 

Ya'll should follow Battleship Texas Foundation.  They're doing a play by play of putting the USS Texas into a moving dry dock.  Should be quite a scene.  I think the dry dock just arrived in the last couple days.  Minor thread jack, but if you're on this thread, you're probably the target audience.

[elfenix 34223]

On 6/6/2019 at 1:16 PM, HouTex said:

I agree with the last two sentences, but not that we could have easily lost the war--given the status of the war in 1944.  But the "what ifs" are very interesting to consider regarding WWII as a whole.  If (a big if) the US was not attacked and stayed out of the war then perhaps Germany could have developed the bomb eventually.  But we know that they were not close to developing the bomb when the war ended in May 1945.  And had Germany not attacked the USSR and focused on the UK who knows how it would have turned out.

book on the allied effort spurred by what we thought heisenberg was doing

https://smile.amazon.com/Chasing-Heisenberg-Race-Kindle-Single-ebook/dp/B077XBMNLW

Edited June 7, 2022 by elfenix

[Hate 20106]

The movie “The Catcher was a Spy” seemed to indicate that we attempted to assassinate him and that Moe Berg decided that he wasn’t close to building the bomb and didn’t go through with it.

[BillyGoatHill 4312]

1 hour ago, Hpara759 said:

near?

Under 3 hrs in West Texas is just down the road.....

[BabaYaga 15288]

15 hours ago, Hpara759 said:

near?

"Camp" Bowie.  Reserve base & training center just outside of Brownwood

[BabaYaga 15288]

13 hours ago, BillyGoatHill said:

Under 3 hrs in West Texas is just down the road.....

You can watch your dog run away for 3 days in west texas....

[Armybrat 40822]

On 6/7/2022 at 8:30 AM, TwiceHorn said:

One of the things that people (I) fail to consider is that in the European invasion, behind the lines, there was at least civilization:  shelter, food, beds.  Hell, jolly old England was an hours flight away most of the time.

On the Pacific islands, there were tents.  And mud, and rats, and crabs, and heat, and shitty food.  And often, the rear areas were built up on a muddy battlefield full of corpses. And the rear areas were still subject to attack because islands are small. Shit that made a hammock on a liberty ship look like paradise, because that was the real rear area.

The cold versus the heat is a real Hobson's choice, though.

 

My Dad didn’t have it so cushy either when we landed on Attu to take it back from the Japanese.  The weather could be atrocious up there, even in summer. He spent 7 months in a tent in the Aleutians in 1943. The japanese fared even worse.

He took these photos…

 

Edited June 8, 2022 by Armybrat