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Should Trump be impeached and removed?

Lurch

By Lurch
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Should Trump be impeached and removed?  

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  1. 1. Should Trump be impeached and removed?


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wildcat09

wildcat09 29244

Posted
Posted
42 minutes ago, Rimbo said:

This is a more difficult question than it appears on the surface. The Economist's Lexington had a great article talking about Pelosi's strategy. (Pro tip: disable JavaScript for [*.]economist.com to get around the paywall.) The problem here is that we need the full support of GOP senators to make this happen, and we don't have it.

 As I've said before, Trump is merely a symptom; McConnell is the real bad guy here.

And @BearSchlong is echoing something I myself has said: Can we trust the Democrats to lead us out of this mess when their idiotic coronation of Hillary got us into it?

A failed attempt at impeachment would certainly be disastrous.  But if the Dems can't even get enough votes from their own caucus after months of impeachment proceedings, we're already completely fucked.

A failed attempt at conviction could easily be turned to the Democrats' advantage and may in fact be their best chance of retaking the Senate and winning by a large enough margin to effectively destroy Trumpism's political future.

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SuingToGetAMessageBoard?

SuingToGetAMessageBoard? 3861

Posted
Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, Asithappens said:

You need to learn the difference between "infer" and "imply".

No.  Infer is by the recipient of information.  Implied is by the deliverer.  The question implies a cooperative senate.  I inferred from the question there would be a cooperative senate.
 

Answer to the question:

Did Trump commit high crime or misdemeanor?

If yes, impeach.  If no, don't impeach.  If your analysis is different from this, you are looking at the wrong things.

My thoughts:  if he interfered significantly with the investigation into demonstrating Russia interfered with the election, that would qualify as a high crime/misdemeanor.  I think he probably did.  Impeach.

Edited by SuingToGetAMessageBoard?
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JimmyJames

JimmyJames 12271

Posted
Posted

The poll results here are not surprising.

What I find interesting is that if this poll would have been proposed on the shag years ago with respect to obama I bet the demographics there at that point in time would have supported impeachment and removal of “obummer.” 

Anyone want to venture over to the scat site to see?  I’m at work. Billing a client for this post of course. 

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BLKNSTY

BLKNSTY 289

Posted
Posted
3 minutes ago, Rimbo said:

Trump wouldn't have won 2020 because he never would have run for president in 2020. Getting elected was never his intention. He didn't decide that he was meant to be president all along until after he was elected. This is all well-documented by this point.

I disagree entirely. Dotard is full of hate, envy, greed, jealously, and the rest of the other christian deadly sins, but has a surprisingly impressive ability to wiggle his way out of everything aka self-preservation.  If history has taught us anything - that fucker will outlive us all.

(A) Donald-the-Dummy would never willingly drop out of anything.
(B) If you assume the above to be correct, you're basically riding your hopes on him not making an off the cuff decision to run for President because a random journalist called him a LOSER!

The same way the right made HRC into the boogeyman under the bed with a penchant for feeding white middle class males to black muslim liberal jews, they'd be banging that Venezuela Socialism drum till kingdom come. 

POTUS Dotard Trump was inevitable.

But on that note, the left needs to get off this anti-centrist campaign. Objectively speaking, going back all the way to WWII when the political parties realigned,  the most successful D presidencies - Truman, Obama, Clinton, FDR, JFK have all been pretty fucking centrist. I'd argue that Carter was probably the most liberal and that guy gets more hate than HRC.

Also, since this is a poll thread. Which political party has had better Presidents since WWII?

FDR, Truman, JFK, Carter, Bill, Obama OR Eisenhower, Nixon, Reagan, GB1, GB2, Trump

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JimmyJames

JimmyJames 12271

Posted
Posted
3 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

*beaten

And no, he wouldn't have. It wouldn't have been close. Trump wanted to run against Bernie. Still does. 

Name a state Bernie loses to trump that Hillary won. And if you think Bernie loses Michigan Wisconsin and Pennsylvania to trump you’re nuts. 

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SuingToGetAMessageBoard?

SuingToGetAMessageBoard? 3861

Posted
Posted
Just now, JimmyJames said:

Name a state Bernie loses to trump that Hillary won. And if you think Bernie loses Michigan Wisconsin and Pennsylvania to trump you’re nuts. 

i think WTB is right, but it is an interesting thought.  you might have the electoral/electoral college issue switched. bernie looses so badly in states he was going to lose in anyway that Trump wins the popular vote, but still manages to hang onto the Hillary states won and add the midwest.

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Rimbo

Rimbo 25780

Posted
Posted
35 minutes ago, BLKNSTY said:

I disagree entirely. Dotard is full of hate, envy, greed, jealously, and the rest of the other christian deadly sins, but has a surprisingly impressive ability to wiggle his way out of everything aka self-preservation.  If history has taught us anything - that fucker will outlive us all.

(A) Donald-the-Dummy would never willingly drop out of anything.
(B) If you assume the above to be correct, you're basically riding your hopes on him not making an off the cuff decision to run for President because a random journalist called him a LOSER!

The same way the right made HRC into the boogeyman under the bed with a penchant for feeding white middle class males to black muslim liberal jews, they'd be banging that Venezuela Socialism drum till kingdom come. 

POTUS Dotard Trump was inevitable.

But on that note, the left needs to get off this anti-centrist campaign. Objectively speaking, going back all the way to WWII when the political parties realigned,  the most successful D presidencies - Truman, Obama, Clinton, FDR, JFK have all been pretty fucking centrist. I'd argue that Carter was probably the most liberal and that guy gets more hate than HRC.

Also, since this is a poll thread. Which political party has had better Presidents since WWII?

FDR, Truman, JFK, Carter, Bill, Obama OR Eisenhower, Nixon, Reagan, GB1, GB2, Trump

This isn't my opinion. It's what he himself, and those around him, said had happened. 

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immamac

immamac 42519

Posted
Posted

I'm not saying that Trump should still be President of the US of A, but I'm not real sure what the hell you want to impeach AND remove him from office for?

I really think that Republicans and Democrats alike should pull their heads out of their asses and start making moves to remove him during the election cycle instead of allowing the theater to continue around him. Once the Mueller investigation was done and there wasn't a way to convict or charge a sitting president everyone should have "moved on", not because we should leave him alone, but literally to move on - take the confidence away from him and start allocating it elsewhere (both Republicans and Democrats).

IMHO the whole issue here is that neither party can get out of their own way and keeps tripping all over their dicks instead of banding together and actually focusing on creating an environment conducive to change in the executive branch. 

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Posted
Posted
7 minutes ago, immamac said:



IMHO the whole issue here is that neither party can get out of their own way and keeps tripping all over their dicks instead of banding together and actually focusing on creating an environment conducive to change in the executive branch. 

We expect of of Congress but not ourselves.

 

as i type that, I wasn't even sure whether that is a statement or question.

Until that miracle of miracles happens, we'll be content to point the finger and claim it's that other guy/gal's fault.  Seems to be the new American Way.

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Chuckie Finster

Chuckie Finster 22600

Posted
Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, immamac said:

I'm not saying that Trump should still be President of the US of A, but I'm not real sure what the hell you want to impeach AND remove him from office for?

I really think that Republicans and Democrats alike should pull their heads out of their asses and start making moves to remove him during the election cycle instead of allowing the theater to continue around him. Once the Mueller investigation was done and there wasn't a way to convict or charge a sitting president everyone should have "moved on", not because we should leave him alone, but literally to move on - take the confidence away from him and start allocating it elsewhere (both Republicans and Democrats).

IMHO the whole issue here is that neither party can get out of their own way and keeps tripping all over their dicks instead of banding together and actually focusing on creating an environment conducive to change in the executive branch. 

Yeah, this isn't a both sides thing.  If the Republicans decided that it was acceptable to go against Glorious Leader's wishes, a lot of this shit could be resolved in a few minutes.  

The issue at hand is that, aside from the lunatics like Meadows and Gaetz, most Republican congressmen KNOW what Trump is doing/saying is insane.  But they have to balance their internal beliefs with their intense desire to get reelected, and right now - because they believe that crossing Trump is a political death sentence - the latter is winning out for most.  

Edited by Chuckie Finster
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Lurch

Lurch 5921

Posted
  • Author
Posted
I'm not saying that Trump should still be President of the US of A, but I'm not real sure what the hell you want to impeach AND remove him from office for?...

Once the Mueller investigation was done and there wasn't a way to convict or charge a sitting president everyone should have "moved on"


Thread answering “what the hell”


Also, impeachment and removal IS the way to charge and convict.
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Guest

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Posted
Posted
7 minutes ago, Chuckie Finster said:

Yeah, this isn't a both sides thing.  If the Republicans decided that it was acceptable to go against Glorious Leader's wishes, a lot of this shit could be resolved in a few minutes.  

The issue at hand is that, aside from the lunatics like Meadows and Gaetz, most Republican congressmen KNOW what Trump is doing/saying is insane.  But they have to balance their internal beliefs with their intense desire to get reelected, and right now - because they believe that crossing Trump is a political death sentence - the latter is winning out for most.  

Yeah,  the partisanship is solely on the GOP...

 

/rolleyes.

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Loco

Loco 3752

Posted
Posted

There is no doubt he should be impeached.

During his impeachment the facts should indicate whether or not he should be removed, not party loyalty or wins and losses.

 

I don't know which I prefer because he can be impeached, but the GOP has sold their soul/dignity/integrity/love of country and regardless of the fact presented, they will line up for this cult of personality.

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Chuckie Finster

Chuckie Finster 22600

Posted
Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, slorch said:

Yeah,  the partisanship is solely on the GOP...

 

/rolleyes.

I'm not talking partisanship.  Sure, there are the typical issues like abortion, minimum wage, etc. that the parties will continue to never see eye-to-eye on.  But shit like tariffs?  Kids in cages?  A border wall?  Cozying up to Putin?  Republicans KNOW that all of those are bad ideas.  They've said as much when their reelection didn't depend on it.  Most of the stuff in the news now is a result of Republican congressmen not having the balls to tell the President that he's nuts.

Edited by Chuckie Finster
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Guest

Guest

Posted
Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Chuckie Finster said:

I'm not talking partisanship.  Sure, there are the typical issues like abortion, minimum wage, etc. that the parties will continue to never see eye-to-eye on.  But shit like tariffs?  Kids in cages?  A border wall?  Cozying up to Putin?  Republicans KNOW that all of those are bad ideas.  They've said as much when their reelection didn't depend on it.  Most of the stuff in the news now is a result of Republican congressmen not having the balls to tell the President that he's nuts.

I agree with where you're coming from, but the Dems ignore their idiots too.

There are many times when I wish we had 535 Independents in Congress.  To hell with partyline horseshit.

Edited by slorch
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RDCanecutter

RDCanecutter 26270

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, txhorns said:

How do we go about getting rid of everyone and just starting over with no parties involved?  No names on the ballot just "Candidate A" and "Candidatd B" with a comparison of their beliefs.

They'll just start throwing out Key Words like the poor saps trying to get their resumes noticed by the robots.

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immamac

immamac 42519

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, Cheeseweasel said:

For those saying "Impeach", what would he be formally charged with?

Exactly - apparently the best answer from above is

1. Attorney General Barr has deliberately misrepresented Mueller’s report.
2. President Trump has engaged in impeachable conduct.

So 2 non-answers to what specifically should be be charged with in a formal impeachment proceeding? So if impeachment proceedings begin now - are they resolved prior to next November? I don't believe they will be and if they are we've bought....what? 2 months without a mouthbreathing president staying in office? Just get him the fuck out in November 2020 and he'll leave or we will forcibly remove him January 2021. Focus on the goal, I don't give a shit if he rots in jail the rest of his life - let the NYAG take a whack at him after he's not president. I just want him out of office and the best way to do that is not wasting a bunch of fucking money and putting on another media circus that he can pander to his base throughout. People seem to forget the more this man has a mouthpiece the more that his supporters feel like they can be bold and outspoken. Let them feel shame, let them feel like they are hopeless and their fearless leader is irrelevant, take away their voice by giving it to someone who actually wants to work shit out.

The House of Representatives ... shall have the sole Power of Impeachment.

—Article I, Section 2, Clause 5

The Senate shall have the sole Power to try all Impeachments. When sitting for that Purpose, they shall be on Oath or Affirmation. When the President of the United States is tried, the Chief Justice shall preside: And no Person shall be convicted without the Concurrence of two thirds of the Members present. Judgment in Cases of Impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from Office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of honor, Trust or Profit under the United States; but the Party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to Indictment, Trial, Judgment and Punishment, according to Law.

—Article I, Section 3, Clauses 6 and 7

[The President} … shall have power to grant reprieves and pardons for offenses against the United States, except in cases of impeachment.

—Article II, Section 2

The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors.

—Article II, Section 4
 
 
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Cheeseweasel

Cheeseweasel 26437

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, SuingToGetAMessageBoard? said:

To the extent your question assumes he has to be charged with a crime, he doesn’t. 

Impeachment is a formal charge. I'm asking what would the formal charge be.

For example, Clinton was impeached as follows:

Article I charged that Clinton lied to the grand jury concerning:

  1. the nature and details of his relationship with Lewinsky
  2. prior false statements he made in the Jones deposition
  3. prior false statements he allowed his lawyer to make characterizing Lewinsky's affidavit
  4. his attempts to tamper with witnesses

Article III charged Clinton with attempting to obstruct justice in the Jones case by:

  1. encouraging Lewinsky to file a false affidavit
  2. encouraging Lewinsky to give false testimony if and when she was called to testify
  3. concealing gifts he had given to Lewinsky that had been subpoenaed
  4. attempting to secure a job for Lewinsky to influence her testimony
  5. permitting his lawyer to make false statements characterizing Lewinsky's affidavit
  6. attempting to tamper with the possible testimony of his secretary Betty Curie
  7. making false and misleading statements to potential grand jury witnesses
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Guest

Guest

Posted
Posted
6 minutes ago, txhorns said:

How do we go about getting rid of everyone and just starting over with no parties involved?  No names on the ballot just "Candidate A" and "Candidatd B" with a comparison of their beliefs.

and their alma maters of course...

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Degenerate Gardner

Degenerate Gardner 4081

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, txhorns said:

How do we go about getting rid of everyone and just starting over with no parties involved?  No names on the ballot just "Candidate A" and "Candidatd B" with a comparison of their beliefs.

Easy.

Step 1: Armageddon, a complete destruction of world order, millions dead

Step 2: Society rebuilds, cobbles together infrastructure, holds elections in our new post-apocalyptic paradise

Gonna be hell on the 401k's though.

 

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txhorns

txhorns 2408

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, Degenerate Gardner said:

Easy.

Step 1: Armageddon, a complete destruction of world order, millions dead

Step 2: Society rebuilds, cobbles together infrastructure, holds elections in our new post-apocalyptic paradise

Gonna be hell on the 401k's though.

 

Sounds good to me.

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GW Hayduke

GW Hayduke 1952

Posted
Posted

- 10 counts of obstruction of justice (part 2 of mueller report)

- 2 counts of conspiracy to violate election laws (payments to Stormy and McDougal)

- several counts of violating foreign emoluments (he chose not to divest and is currently profiting from foreign governments using his buildings)

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DanRydell

DanRydell 799

Posted
Posted

Politically, I think it would be a bad move for Dems to impeach in the House (although if there was enough momentum for him to actually be removed by the Senate, then that political calculus probably changes).

But it would also be the right and lawful thing to do.

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hobbes2702

hobbes2702 12827

Posted
Posted
15 minutes ago, immamac said:

Exactly - apparently the best answer from above is

1. Attorney General Barr has deliberately misrepresented Mueller’s report.
2. President Trump has engaged in impeachable conduct.

So 2 non-answers to what specifically should be be charged with in a formal impeachment proceeding? So if impeachment proceedings begin now - are they resolved prior to next November? I don't believe they will be and if they are we've bought....what? 2 months without a mouthbreathing president staying in office? Just get him the fuck out in November 2020 and he'll leave or we will forcibly remove him January 2021. Focus on the goal, I don't give a shit if he rots in jail the rest of his life - let the NYAG take a whack at him after he's not president. I just want him out of office and the best way to do that is not wasting a bunch of fucking money and putting on another media circus that he can pander to his base throughout. People seem to forget the more this man has a mouthpiece the more that his supporters feel like they can be bold and outspoken. Let them feel shame, let them feel like they are hopeless and their fearless leader is irrelevant, take away their voice by giving it to someone who actually wants to work shit out.

The House of Representatives ... shall have the sole Power of Impeachment.

—Article I, Section 2, Clause 5

The Senate shall have the sole Power to try all Impeachments. When sitting for that Purpose, they shall be on Oath or Affirmation. When the President of the United States is tried, the Chief Justice shall preside: And no Person shall be convicted without the Concurrence of two thirds of the Members present. Judgment in Cases of Impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from Office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of honor, Trust or Profit under the United States; but the Party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to Indictment, Trial, Judgment and Punishment, according to Law.

—Article I, Section 3, Clauses 6 and 7

[The President} … shall have power to grant reprieves and pardons for offenses against the United States, except in cases of impeachment.

—Article II, Section 2

The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors.

—Article II, Section 4
 
 

Obstruction of justice, emoluments.

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suddenly shaggy

suddenly shaggy 929

Posted
Posted (edited)

Impeachment is the only check on an out of control executive. We discussed this topic for a month or so before the Mueller report came out. TwiceHorn did a particularly good job explaining the rule that DOJ won't indict the President and how this policy is part of the fallout of the GOP indictment of Clinton and separation of powers. In case you forgot, the threshold for impeachment there was lying about a blowjob, which brings us to...

Trump is "Individual One" an unindicted co-conspirator in the Cohen case. Trump committed felony campaign finance violations to cover up having raw dogged a pornstar while his wife was home with his newborn. 

For a second crystal clear one, his AG and his cabinet are currently defying Congressional subpoenas. 

Throw in emoluments and hundreds of Hatch violations promoting private businesses using government time and resources. 

 

Edited by suddenly shaggy
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hobbes2702

hobbes2702 12827

Posted
Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

Pragmatically, obstruction is difficult politically because Trump's minions will scream "how can you obstruct a crime that he didn't commit". 

I agree with you on emoluments. 

Trumps minions can scream whatever they want. The law is clear. He has obstructed justice on more than one occasion. He has tampered with witnesses on more than one occasion. He has violated the emoluments clause on more than one occasion.

Also there were underlying crimes. He obstructed justice into the investigation of crimes committed by his friends. The “no underlying crime” narrative is simply untrue.

Edited by hobbes2702
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Lurch

Lurch 5921

Posted
  • Author
Posted
Pragmatically, obstruction is difficult politically because Trump's minions will scream "how can you obstruct a crime that he didn't commit". 
I agree with you on emoluments. 


They will, but...

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Cheeseweasel

Cheeseweasel 26437

Posted
Posted

Cool, but some guy on twitter only has 1 vote. I'm with @immamac--if the goal is to get Trump out of office, the ballot box is the way to go. 

Again, I'm thinking pragmatically about the 2020 election and one of the keys will be voter turnout. I think there is a great deal of burnout on the Republican side for Trump. Giving those people a "cause" to show up is a bad strategy. Let Trump continue to be a fool--don't make him a martyr and I believe his reelection is doomed.

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hobbes2702

hobbes2702 12827

Posted
Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

Cool, but some guy on twitter only has 1 vote. I'm with @immamac--if the goal is to get Trump out of office, the ballot box is the way to go. 

Again, I'm thinking pragmatically about the 2020 election and one of the keys will be voter turnout. I think there is a great deal of burnout on the Republican side for Trump. Giving those people a "cause" to show up is a bad strategy. Let Trump continue to be a fool--don't make him a martyr and I believe his reelection is doomed.

Then the executive branch can never again be held accountable for interfering in lawful investigations and is forever above the law. I don’t want a king, how about you?

 

Dammit @Cheeseweasel why did I come to this thread. I’m still glowing about 6, we shouldn’t be arguing politics lol.

Edited by hobbes2702
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