Austin Homeless Free for All Ordinance

[Bozo_Casanova 26277]

4 hours ago, BrazilHorn said:

The crazy thing to me is the complete suspension of all law enforcement when it comes to homeless people.

If I littered, started fires, shit in public etc etc I would be fined, arrested & jailed.

I get letting folks have their camps and I have empathy for people truly experiencing homelessness but I don't know why we suspend every other law associated with being part of a society.

Indeed you would, but in my view the reason why they aren’t has nothing to do with policy and everything to do with the all-time low relationship between Council, Staff, APD leadership and APD Union. That part isn’t a policy issue. 

 

11 minutes ago, TKthunder2 said:

You arrest them and they lose their piles of shit and when they get out they have to start all over.  It’s a deterrent.  We need a better solution but not arresting them should never be the official policy especially when they are violent or destructive.

Would that were true, but it simply isn’t, at least not with the permanent homeless population. It’s the same thing as Bill collectors yelling at subprime borrowers: all this has happened before. You’re expecting people who are completely spiritually and psychologically exhausted to protect dignity that has already been stripped away. It’s pretty basic- if we want them to live like human beings we have to help them get their humanity back with the expectation that they will need housing and supportive community for the rest of their lives.

And  yes, it will cost money. Less than what we pay now for jail and emergency rooms, but it won’t be free. 

Edited April 2, 2021 by Bozo_Casanova

[TKthunder2 4980]

Just to be clear, I’m not advocating for arresting campers, only violent and destructive people, like we always have until the camping ban was overturned and the city stopped enforcing nearly all laws on the homeless.  You can, and I do want a permanent, humane solution to this issue but giving homeless a free pass is not a good solution.

[Guest Lobo]

I think of the Eddie Izzard bit about Chiropractors (no offense to any on here).  Whatever is wrong with the person and no matter what the x-rays say...back pain, diphtheria, your head has come off, you look your mother...we're gonna crack your bones.  

That's the approach six years in by many council members and Mayor Adler.  

Mental illness?  We're gonna buy a hotel.

Addiction issues?  We're gonna buy a hotel.

Drug abuse?  We're gonna buy a hotel.

Nuisance camping causing blockages, harassment, assault, fires, and other crimes?  We're gonna buy a hotel.  

Lack of collaboration on the part of the City with State of Texas and Federal Government?  We're gonna buy a hotel. 

Lack of job training?  We're gonna buy a hotel.

Failure to engage School of Social Work at the University of Texas?  We're gonna buy a hotel. 

Out-of-Control Cost-of-Living in Austin?  We're gonna buy a hotel.  

Mayor Adler is a walking, talking felonious criminal and should be treated as the piece of human shit that he is.  

 

 

[Wally Pryor 5244]

1 hour ago, hayden_horn said:

so i remember when homeless people fires occurred in woods behind gas stations on 290.

generally i have a lot of empathy for homeless people, much of it learned doing the census in 2010.

but when i saw the news this morning, and when i see landmarks burning down...we need to do something else. last month, my wife and i went downtown and i saw all those tents along cesar chavez and on the hike and bike trail...they are losing me. it's horrible.

we need to do something else.

You think?   Even the wet rag said 2+ months ago that the camping experiment wasn't working.  We have $65MM / year budgeted toward the homeless.  Even after the slime on the council takes their cut we have a shitload of money left.   Is buying up all these hotels the answer?  I don't know.  Maybe it is. Like I've said for months, city council, justify all this god damned spending with a plan and tell us how it's going to work - ins / outs, metrics for measuring success, oversight plan, 5-year view of things, etc.   You know, basic stuff that you need to substantiate 8-figure spending per year on a problem.  A problem that is eating up the city.   Instead we get the constant stream of idiotic actions without a plan, spending without limits and then asking questions later when it's too late. 

Our council is such an unbridled cluster fuck.

[956 Worldwide 34422]

1 minute ago, Lobo said:

I think of the Eddie Izzard bit about Chiropractors (no offense to any on here).  Whatever is wrong with the person and no matter what the x-rays say...back pain, diphtheria, your head has come off, you look your mother...we're gonna crack your bones.  

That's the approach six years in by many council members and Mayor Adler.  

Mental illness?  We're gonna buy a hotel.

Addiction issues?  We're gonna buy a hotel.

Drug abuse?  We're gonna buy a hotel.

Nuisance camping causing blockages, harassment, assault, fires, and other crimes?  We're gonna buy a hotel.  

Lack of collaboration on the part of the City with State of Texas and Federal Government?  We're gonna buy a hotel. 

Lack of job training?  We're gonna buy a hotel.

Failure to engage School of Social Work at the University of Texas?  We're gonna buy a hotel. 

Out-of-Control Cost-of-Living in Austin?  We're gonna buy a hotel.  

Mayor Adler is a walking, talking felonious criminal and should be treated as the piece of human shit that he is.  

 

 

[gyroprotagonist 2591]

2 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

i think you are on to something. 

maybe something like a homeless snowpiercer train that never stops? you could probably score some Biden-bucks with infrastructure stimulus as well.

[Wally Pryor 5244]

14 hours ago, smokebomb said:

Does FitLump even know that the city council is responsible for the camping situation?

 

 

Great, Kelly.  Yay Prop B.   Then what?   You gonna use your supreme volunteer fire fighting skills to help tackle this shit out in the woods when it becomes acres and acres and takes neighborhoods with it?  

It's a putrid fucking mess that the homeless have made.  Embarrassing and disgusting doesn't even begin to describe parts of the city now.  But is kicking them out into the sticks a better solution?  I don't know the answer.   I just know it's a travesty that we have come to this point and fixing it feels like a mother fucking bear to tackle.  And I get so much solace knowing who's in charge of trying to address it. 

 

[bschoolprof 6232]

They don't need to be arrested, they just need the experience of camping out wherever they want to be made miserable.  Step 1: cops/dps tell them they have 30 minutes to vacate as they are camping illegally.  All items left on public property will be seized.  They start losing all their shit with some frequency, and this practice becomes far less attractive to them.  

[Armybrat 40725]

1 hour ago, Wally Pryor said:

 

Great, Kelly.  Yay Prop B.   Then what?   You gonna use your supreme volunteer fire fighting skills to help tackle this shit out in the woods when it becomes acres and acres and takes neighborhoods with it?  

It's a putrid fucking mess that the homeless have made.  Embarrassing and disgusting doesn't even begin to describe parts of the city now.  But is kicking them out into the sticks a better solution?  I don't know the answer.   I just know it's a travesty that we have come to this point and fixing it feels like a mother fucking bear to tackle.  And I get so much solace knowing who's in charge of trying to address it. 

 

That took a southwest Austin neighborhood with it several years ago, remember?

A bum left his campfire unattended in the woods while he went to the 7-11 to buy a 40 - burned down several nice homes to make those families homeless.

[Wally Pryor 5244]

6 minutes ago, Armybrat said:

That took a southwest Austin neighborhood with it several years ago, remember?

A bum left his campfire unattended in the woods while he went to the 7-11 to buy a 40 - burned down several nice homes to make those families homeless.

 

Yup.  Not too far from the big ACC building. 

[Guest Lobo]

That building is just screaming out to be made into a homeless housing facility.  ACC and City of Austin already rake us over enough on property taxes, they may as well join forces on that piece of real estate and do some good.  

But they won't because it would be considered "shuffling our homeless problem to the outskirts of town."  

Oh yeah right, the old "Must be close to services" bullshit argument.  There's going to be one large-scale homeless shelter/housing platform in every single district.  Mathematically speaking, not all of them are gonna be "close to services" you fucking dipshits.  Ben White and Town Lake encampments aren't actually all that close to services either.  So the homeless are improvising.  If they can't get themselves to medical care, they set fire to shit and voila'...EMS and Fire come to them.  

[Armybrat 40725]

My nephew got tired of catering to the Ben White bums who took up 3/4 of his fire station’s time for years. He is now ensconced in a new station out near the race track. Relatively quiet out there and not busy compared to the St. Elmo area.

Edited April 2, 2021 by Armybrat

[MissingInAction 24810]

Canvassers came by my place advocating for this homeless free pass bullshit. I took these stupid cunts on a tour of all the crime and damage caused by this horseshit just in my own hood.

Found out neither one of them even live in the city. Douche fucks from San francisco.

Vote for prop B!

Edited April 2, 2021 by MissingInAction

[Nicole44 22027]

It would have been nice had our city leaders and main leader before ringing the proverbial dinner bell and saying, “Hey it’s legal to camp here! Come on down,” if we had had a plan in place for said folk. We had zero real plan just compassion. 
 

I am sure all of us have compassion for those who have so little and those who are struggling with mental issues and drug addiction problems. But there are cities and towns across the US who have dealt with this problem successfully. Columbus, Ohio and Salt Lake City, Utah are just two examples. They go with the “housing first” notion. It appears to be working though it’s impossible to entirely eradicate all the issues that plague homeless people.

You look at what San Antonio is working on...or what even Abilene, Texas is doing to help their homeless vets...all better than what we have done here in Austin. It’s stupidity. 

Did we meet with any of those places or just look at the blueprint fail of SF and Seattle etc...? 
 

it hardly seems compassionate to me. 

[Guest Lobo]

it's not compassionate any longer.  And there is no plan, only entropy.  This makes the response to Covid-19 look like an autistic lego competition by comparison.  

What's more the City has rigged it up beautifully.  Used to be if you said, "Screw the homeless, buncha drunks and druggies getting what they deserve."...you'd be considered an asshole, and rightfully so.  But now, if you question anything from street defecation, public drug use, arson, harassing tourists, assaulting joggers, sleeping in crosswalks, to being combative with first responders---you are a bad person with no compassion who should not have a voice in how we solve this complex issue.  Because they have no plan and don't care about solving homelessness, any attack on them or the homeless is mean-spirited and inhuman.  When you stand for nothing, everything tossed your way must be coming from a place of hate, no?  

[dcar00 14030]

14 minutes ago, Nicole44 said:

It would have been nice had our city leaders and main leader before ringing the proverbial dinner bell and saying, “Hey it’s legal to camp here! Come on down,” if we had had a plan in place for said folk. We had zero real plan just compassion. 
 

I am sure all of us have compassion for those who have so little and those who are struggling with mental issues and drug addiction problems. But there are cities and towns across the US who have dealt with this problem successfully. Columbus, Ohio and Salt Lake City, Utah are just two examples. They go with the “housing first” notion. It appears to be working though it’s impossible to entirely eradicate all the issues that plague homeless people.

You look at what San Antonio is working on...or what even Abilene, Texas is doing to help their homeless vets...all better than what we have done here in Austin. It’s stupidity. 

Did we meet with any of those places or just look at the blueprint fail of SF and Seattle etc...? 
 

it hardly seems compassionate to me. 

"housing first" here means buy hotels and make money off the grift.

[Armybrat 40725]

When a homeless woman tossed her loaded 9mm down by my son’s patio door after being frightened off from an apparent attempt to get into his house, and said pistol was discovered by my young grandson who smartly alerted his dad immediately, I began to have less sympathy for that demographic. 

Then after my son called 311 and turned the loaded firearm over to APD, we were further appalled to learn that the demented woman actually came back to my son’s house to retrieve her gun. Son read her the riot act about endangering children with her dangerous negligence, referred her to APD, and warned her gtfo. Later he contacted the case officer who informed him that the woman came to the APD HQ where they gave the pistol back to her. 
This was several years before Adler & his clown show emasculated the APD.

Color me unsympathetic towards Austin for allowing these FUBAR policies to continue to exist.

 

[Deej 76543]

Fire just a part of Adler’s plan to battle Prop B. 

https://www.kxan.com/news/local/austin/mayor-adler-moving-people-back-to-the-woods-will-make-these-fires-deadly/

 

 

[Kyle 207]

The scary, structural issue no one was intelligent enough to recognize the obvious outcome. I continuously am amazed at how stupid people are the not connect close dots. We deserve better leaders that can calculate impact of their stupid policies.

[HornOnTheBayou 8881]

1 hour ago, Armybrat said:

My nephew got tired of catering to the Ben White bums who took up 3/4 of his fire station’s time for years. He is now ensconced in a new station out near the race track. Relatively quiet out there and not busy compared to the St. Elmo area.

I would imagine there would be a lot of fires in St. Elmo

[dcar00 14030]

35 minutes ago, HornOnTheBayou said:

I would imagine there would be a lot of fires in St. Elmo

we need to get some of these homeless men in motion...

[Guest Lobo]

Am I the only one reading this thread to a totally rad saxophone solo?

[Armybrat 40725]

14 minutes ago, Lobo said:

Am I the only one reading this thread to a totally rad saxophone solo?

 

[Biff Tannen 45491]

5 hours ago, Lobo said:

I think of the Eddie Izzard bit about Chiropractors (no offense to any on here).  Whatever is wrong with the person and no matter what the x-rays say...back pain, diphtheria, your head has come off, you look your mother...we're gonna crack your bones.  

That's the approach six years in by many council members and Mayor Adler.  

Mental illness?  We're gonna buy a hotel.

Addiction issues?  We're gonna buy a hotel.

Drug abuse?  We're gonna buy a hotel.

Nuisance camping causing blockages, harassment, assault, fires, and other crimes?  We're gonna buy a hotel.  

Lack of collaboration on the part of the City with State of Texas and Federal Government?  We're gonna buy a hotel. 

Lack of job training?  We're gonna buy a hotel.

Failure to engage School of Social Work at the University of Texas?  We're gonna buy a hotel. 

Out-of-Control Cost-of-Living in Austin?  We're gonna buy a hotel.  

Mayor Adler is a walking, talking felonious criminal and should be treated as the piece of human shit that he is.  

 

 

93 letters. Chiropractor. 

[Chet Steadman 940]

17 hours ago, Lobo said:

I think of the Eddie Izzard bit about Chiropractors (no offense to any on here).  Whatever is wrong with the person and no matter what the x-rays say...back pain, diphtheria, your head has come off, you look your mother...we're gonna crack your bones.  

That's the approach six years in by many council members and Mayor Adler.  

Mental illness?  We're gonna buy a hotel.

Addiction issues?  We're gonna buy a hotel.

Drug abuse?  We're gonna buy a hotel.

Nuisance camping causing blockages, harassment, assault, fires, and other crimes?  We're gonna buy a hotel.  

Lack of collaboration on the part of the City with State of Texas and Federal Government?  We're gonna buy a hotel. 

Lack of job training?  We're gonna buy a hotel.

Failure to engage School of Social Work at the University of Texas?  We're gonna buy a hotel. 

Out-of-Control Cost-of-Living in Austin?  We're gonna buy a hotel.  

Mayor Adler is a walking, talking felonious criminal and should be treated as the piece of human shit that he is.  

 

 

Did you ever find out who Adler’s plane belonged to?

[Cajun 11675]

On 4/1/2021 at 10:13 PM, phdhorn said:

Just working out their mental issues, nothing to see here.  ¡Viva Greg Casar!

Just some losers experiencing pyromania.

It's no big deal.

The ATX shit hole continues its legend.

[Cajun 11675]

15 hours ago, Lobo said:

it's not compassionate any longer.  And there is no plan, only entropy.  This makes the response to Covid-19 look like an autistic lego competition by comparison.  

What's more the City has rigged it up beautifully.  Used to be if you said, "Screw the homeless, buncha drunks and druggies getting what they deserve."...you'd be considered an asshole, and rightfully so.  But now, if you question anything from street defecation, public drug use, arson, harassing tourists, assaulting joggers, sleeping in crosswalks, to being combative with first responders---you are a bad person with no compassion who should not have a voice in how we solve this complex issue.  Because they have no plan and don't care about solving homelessness, any attack on them or the homeless is mean-spirited and inhuman.  When you stand for nothing, everything tossed your way must be coming from a place of hate, no?  

Yup.  Same "approach" going on at the border.

Fun, ain't it?

[B00M 6280]

16 hours ago, Nicole44 said:

It would have been nice had our city leaders and main leader before ringing the proverbial dinner bell and saying, “Hey it’s legal to camp here! Come on down,” if we had had a plan in place for said folk. We had zero real plan just compassion. 

I am sure all of us have compassion for those who have so little and those who are struggling with mental issues and drug addiction problems.

You know what makes me compassionate when I look at these camps? The piles of bikes stolen from children. Sorry but fuck these dangerous assholes. Send them to the W.

[wood 11121]

18 hours ago, bschoolprof said:

They don't need to be arrested, they just need the experience of camping out wherever they want to be made miserable. 

I've thought about this a bit as well. There's a thing on all of our steering wheels that makes a lot of noise. Seems like it could be a powerful tool ...

[wood 11121]

17 hours ago, Lobo said:

That building is just screaming out to be made into a homeless housing facility.  ACC and City of Austin already rake us over enough on property taxes, they may as well join forces on that piece of real estate and do some good.  

But they won't because it would be considered "shuffling our homeless problem to the outskirts of town."  

Oh yeah right, the old "Must be close to services" bullshit argument.  There's going to be one large-scale homeless shelter/housing platform in every single district.  Mathematically speaking, not all of them are gonna be "close to services" you fucking dipshits.  Ben White and Town Lake encampments aren't actually all that close to services either.  So the homeless are improvising.  If they can't get themselves to medical care, they set fire to shit and voila'...EMS and Fire come to them.  

They've never had to set fire to shit to get EMS and Fire to come to them. All they've ever had to do is call 911, and they'll get all the services anyone else can get. 

[Guest Lobo]

Hyperbole for effect since there's been a number of these fires as of late.  And Adler's warning to us that forcing them back to encampments in the woods would lead to fires is just comical to me.  That they "accidentally" set fire to the Buford Tower is just sublimely insulting at this point.  

But yes, to your point---they do abuse the 911/first responder system on a daily basis.  A disastrous allocation of scare city resources that is borderline criminal, IMO.  

[troph 24562]

When you half as your thinking, half ass your policies, shit goes wrong.  Bozo is right. If camping isn’t illegal then make it legal with facilities in desi bated spaces. If camping is illegal housing centers will be needed, if you want them standing on their own two feet, then Kyle is right mental health initiatives are needed.  Republican throw them in jail policies are inhumane but the current situation is worse because it impacts all of us.  Stop half assing this and deal with it straight up and completely. 

Edited April 3, 2021 by troph

[ChickenSandwich 9798]

Who was the last Republican Mayor of Austin?  

[Guest Lobo]

Well, obviously you know they don't run as party members.  I'd argue, while he was a registered Democrat, that Leffingwell kinda acted somewhat "Republican" while in office (I mean that in a good way).  But to your point, the last registered Republican who also happened to run without party, and win, as Mayor of Austin was Lee Cooke back in '88.  

A "Republican" mayor is not gonna solve this.  And the "Democrats" Council and current Mayor or corrupt, fraudulent pieces of shit.  

I'd gladly take "progressive, liberal" politics if it didn't come with all the baggage of criminal stupidity and immoral levels of grift.  

[Murfdogg21 4412]

Using the 6th Street bar model, send them to Mexico as part of a one in-one out policy. 

[Red Five 40633]

My daughter and I were stopped at a light downtown a few nights ago, and a homeless gentleman started banging on her window, and held up a sign that said "I want ho's", along with a picture of his dong. That was nice. The next day a homeless dude followed her into HEB and she had to get an employee to help. As she was telling me this story, a friend of her's texted her saying "I just left a restaurant downtown and was chased by a homeless guy screaming at me". 

[wood 11121]

Everyone vote May 1, and be sure to tell your neighbors as well.

[ChickenSandwich 9798]

https://pistolpacknmama.com/basic-hobo-purse-fashionable-concealed-carry-purse/
 

pistol packn mama has some items for her

Basic Hobo Purse - Fashionable Concealed Carry Purse

$95.95

[Dbeasy 14963]

15 minutes ago, wood said:

Everyone vote May 1, and be sure to tell your neighbors as well.

Guess those that live in cedar park, Leander, etc can’t vote which is a shame because a lot of support would come from those areas. 

[dcar00 14030]

18 minutes ago, Lobo said:

Well, obviously you know they don't run as party members.  I'd argue, while he was a registered Democrat, that Leffingwell kinda acted somewhat "Republican" while in office (I mean that in a good way).  But to your point, the last registered Republican who also happened to run without party, and win, as Mayor of Austin was Lee Cooke back in '88.  

A "Republican" mayor is not gonna solve this.  And the "Democrats" Council and current Mayor or corrupt, fraudulent pieces of shit.  

I'd gladly take "progressive, liberal" politics if it didn't come with all the baggage of criminal stupidity and immoral levels of grift.  

well yes if you are forced at gunpoint to chose between keep austin weird/act like San Fran and outright criminal. a smart center line govt is possible but not gonna find that in Austin anymore though. prop A,homeless, and defund the police all at once was pretty much the tipping point, exacerbated by the crazy growth.  It was fun for a while, I do admit.  just have to move out a bit farther now.

[Guest Lobo]

It's one stupid decision by these people after another.  It is starting to beg the chicken and egg question.  

[wood 11121]

14 minutes ago, Dbeasy said:

Guess those that live in cedar park, Leander, etc can’t vote which is a shame because a lot of support would come from those areas. 

Yep. But my kid told me there's some polling data that says voters are 70% in favor of Prop B. Hopefully that's true, & they'll vote.

[B00M 6280]

45 minutes ago, Red Five said:

My daughter and I were stopped at a light downtown a few nights ago, and a homeless gentleman started banging on her window, and held up a sign that said "I want ho's", along with a picture of his dong. That was nice. The next day a homeless dude followed her into HEB and she had to get an employee to help. As she was telling me this story, a friend of her's texted her saying "I just left a restaurant downtown and was chased by a homeless guy screaming at me". 

Like an actual dick pic he uploaded to Amazon photos, got printed and prime delivered to his shanty? Or just a detailed sketch? Aren't unsolicited dick pics a crime? 

Edited April 3, 2021 by B00M

[Red Five 40633]

It was a self portrait I think.

Point being, I think they’re getting hornier.

[Brisketexan 104558]

Like an actual dick pic he uploaded to Amazon photos, got printed and prime delivered to his shanty? Or just a detailed sketch? Aren't unsolicited dick pics a crime? 

Maybe....but unsolicited dick pencil sketches are part of our vibrant landscape of public art and expression.

Why do you hate art, you philistine?

[Brisketexan 104558]

When you half as your thinking, half ass your policies, shit goes wrong.  Bozo is right. If camping isn’t illegal then make it legal with facilities in desi bated spaces. If camping is illegal housing centers will be needed, if you want them standing on their own two feet, then Kyle is right mental health initiatives are needed.  Republican throw them in jail policies are inhumane but the current situation is worse because it impacts all of us.  Stop half assing this and deal with it straight up and completely. 

Also, as usual, Troph and Bozo have this issue pegged.

There are numerous “right” or at least “better” approaches to dealing with these issues. Neither current leadership nor the vocal opposition is offering any of them to any meaningful degree. It’s maddening.

On this thread, we do great at bitching about the current approach (and to be fair...it’s EASY to bitch about), and occasionally, some folks raise things that actually could and should be done. But we’re just dipshits on a message board. I’m looking for leadership that offers an actual solution-oriented plan. Not demagoguery, not talking about the fact that the way things are sucks, but rather proposing something comprehensive that addresses root issues instead of the visible symptoms.

I’m still looking. No signs on the horizon.

[troph 24562]

except I shouldn't post without my glasses and without coffee at the same time.  I need "desi bated" times for posting and that's not one of them, I end up with a "half as" [sic] response.

[Paco 1929]

Also, as usual, Troph and Bozo have this issue pegged.

So we just don't care about phrasing anymore?

[Cajun 11675]

3 hours ago, Lobo said:

Hyperbole for effect since there's been a number of these fires as of late.  And Adler's warning to us that forcing them back to encampments in the woods would lead to fires is just comical to me.  That they "accidentally" set fire to the Buford Tower is just sublimely insulting at this point.  

But yes, to your point---they do abuse the 911/first responder system on a daily basis.  A disastrous allocation of scare city resources that is borderline criminal, IMO.  

Did he give that warning from Cabo?

Asking for a friend.

[TKthunder2 4980]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

Also, as usual, Troph and Bozo have this issue pegged.

There are numerous “right” or at least “better” approaches to dealing with these issues. Neither current leadership nor the vocal opposition is offering any of them to any meaningful degree. It’s maddening.

On this thread, we do great at bitching about the current approach (and to be fair...it’s EASY to bitch about), and occasionally, some folks raise things that actually could and should be done. But we’re just dipshits on a message board. I’m looking for leadership that offers an actual solution-oriented plan. Not demagoguery, not talking about the fact that the way things are sucks, but rather proposing something comprehensive that addresses root issues instead of the visible symptoms.

I’m still looking. No signs on the horizon.

Fucking-A fitlump’s team (assuming she didn’t come up with this) came up with a better solution, instead of buying hotels at massive markups just take that money and fund community first housing projects, that would be far better than anything this city has come up with this far.