impeachment inquiry hearings thread

[GRHorn 105]

8 hours ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

Stop pretending like you give a fuck about fiscal responsibility you hypocritical sack of shit.

Don’t ever bring it up again.

There’s a spectrum. MMT advocates are on the opposite end from people like Austrians. I think it’s an ideology that would hasten our downfall if enacted in full.

[DixonHur 11304]

53 minutes ago, hookem17 said:

Schiff needs to have Parnas testify before Thanksgiving and implicate Nunes. The republicans are going to trash Parnas for being a criminal, but we’re already seeing some emails that confirm Nunes’ involvement. 
 

edit: Dems have filed an ethics complaint against Nunes due to his failure to recuse himself:

He’s not going down without a fight, though: 

 

Wouldn't a lawsuit open him up to discovery?  Seems like a bad idea.  

Probably just saber rattling on his part

[Biff Tannen 45685]

Maybe he should finish his cow lawsuit first before wading into another one.

[Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand 13585]

Nunes should tread lightly when venturing into cartoon-land. Things can get sideways fast. They're sleek. They're stealthy. Shenanigans are their forte'.

[Horn Dog 9855]

Holy shit  this is wonderful.   That farty congressman that explosively blew this into the open (pun intended) is my new hero.

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

1 hour ago, hookem17 said:

Schiff needs to have Parnas testify before Thanksgiving and implicate Nunes. The republicans are going to trash Parnas for being a criminal, but we’re already seeing some emails that confirm Nunes’ involvement. 
 

edit: Dems have filed an ethics complaint against Nunes due to his failure to recuse himself:

He’s not going down without a fight, though: 

 

 

1 hour ago, kevwun said:

It was always an easy assumption that Nunes was involved in this shit because his water carrying efforts didn’t make sense for any other reason.  Nice to see it confirmed though.  I don’t know how they will be able to keep him involved in the hearings as soon as this is proven by evidence.

Quite some time ago before the inquiry had begun, subpoenas served, and witnesses giving testimony, I was looking at the members of the various committees. Where they were from, other committees, etc, etc. As events progressed, what @kevwun assumes is correct, it became more and more apparent that not only Nunes was ensnared in this mess, but that even the lesser known 'minority' members on the HIC and other committees had awareness of the situation. Watching Elise Stefanik and Jim Jordan (who, like Ted Cruz, is not well liked among his colleagues) seize the day to leverage their power and increase status in the machine was enraging.

The seriousness of the situation demands at least some measure of impartiality and probity. Using the GOP defense that one is representing their constituents desires and that "this is a charade and this is a hoax," is a disservice to those citizens especially if those citizens have been fooled by partisan and insurgent attempts by foreign entities. It is also a violation of the oath of office. They know this, and it is unforgivable. Once complicit, there is no return. *One cannot unload the prisoners from the train to be sorted into who lives or dies and then claim you were not a party to murder, regardless if some lived.

In addition, has anyone else noticed in all the attempts to distract, attack the process, and otherwise derail the inquiry there has been very little said about Reps Schiff, et al that is not simply smears against their appearances, character, and motives? Plainly, I'm not seeing that many of the majority members have been tangled up in some of this mess or something similar. Do I think they are angels? Yeah, no. But I am also not stupid enough to believe that the GOP/RNC apparatus has not been looking in every corner trying to find something.

Finally, I have never met Rep. Jordan but in my very biased and female observation, the ego on that fellow must be enormous. I tip my hat to his wrestling skills, he earned them but my impression is one that he views himself as a modern day bulldog. Churchill was a flawed man, a racist for certain, but Jordan possess none of the intelligence of Churchill and 100% of the ego.

 

*Yeah, I went there. It's early and the football today is going to stink so I'm in a dark mood.

[triplehorn 2664]

Good synopsis: 

Keeping in mind Nunes met with Shokin in Vienna - where Putin mobster Dmitry Firtash is holed up, out on bail, fighting extradition to the US

 

How many times did Nunes demand to have Hunter Biden testify during the past two weeks of House impeachment inquiry testimonies ?  

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

That is some serious info, there. Thank you for posting it @triplehorn. I'm going to need a whiteboard to have a "*donk donk" display of the links to everyone. I sure miss Muckety.

Another element of this related to the Russia angle that doesn't cover articles of Impeachment, is the flow of dollars not just for the bribery of elected officials, but the support of fringe groups that advance Russia's interest and the "New & Improved" Homeland Security and Customs & Immigration Departments. Richard Spencer, Preston Wiginton, and quite a few others involved with white supremacy groups travel frequently between Russia and the US. They have received financial support, women, and have developed quite a network that is now running throughout the US. While the two I mentioned have receded into the background a little due to travel alerts, personal problems, etc, (think of them as Purnas and Fruman with slightly different agendas) it would be a mistake to assume that all of the capos, spies and useful idiots are not actively working in various ways to strengthen the Russian mafia and promote the Russian agenda. That we have two Departments that have subsumed the Russian agenda and made it our policy with the support of racist nationalist citizens is frightening.

I bring this up because the web is so large, it is going to be difficult to get the big spiders. I agree that impeaching/removing the President is a necessary first step, if only just to shine light on the crimes, but this is not over and will not be over if we don't cast a slightly wider net.

 

*Law and Order in its various series

[David Dennison 18860]

2 hours ago, hookem17 said:

Schiff needs to have Parnas testify before Thanksgiving and implicate Nunes. The republicans are going to trash Parnas for being a criminal, but we’re already seeing some emails that confirm Nunes’ involvement. 
 

edit: Dems have filed an ethics complaint against Nunes due to his failure to recuse himself:

He’s not going down without a fight, though: 

 

I have a feeling House Intelligence Committee hearings are done.

[Post Oak 20213]

What is preventing SDNY from arresting Nunes?

 

[David Dennison 18860]

Just now, Post Oak said:

What is preventing SDNY from arresting Nunes?

 

Bill Barr.

[atomheartbevo 89668]

 

1 hour ago, DixonHur said:

Wouldn't a lawsuit open him up to discovery?  Seems like a bad idea.  

Probably just saber rattling on his part

Not just that, but he's drawing attention to the articles.  Streisand Effect and all.

But then again, it sounds like he's in deep enough that he's treading water and getting tired.  People who are on the verge of drowning are panicky as fuck.

[atomheartbevo 89668]

17 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

I have a feeling House Intelligence Committee hearings are done.

Even with all off the documents that were just released?  And with the Nunes stuff?

[Nice Guy Eddie 13512]

Pelosi and Schiff aren’t going to derail the hearings just to embarrass Nunes. They have time to go after him next.  Nunes can’t hide from a house ethics investigation, and when it’s proven he broke the law, it’s better to have that a standalone case rather than tied up in trump.

Besides inviting Parnas to the hearing is just too risky. Probably for both sides. They have no idea what he will actually say.

im sure Schiff is speaking to him but I would be surprised if he testifies. 

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

10 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Pelosi and Schiff aren’t going to derail the hearings just to embarrass Nunes. They have time to go after him next.  Nunes can’t hide from a house ethics investigation, and when it’s proven he broke the law, it’s better to have that a standalone case rather than tied up in trump.

Besides inviting Parnas to the hearing is just too risky. Probably for both sides. They have no idea what he will actually say.

im sure Schiff is speaking to him but I would be surprised if he testifies. 

As much as I would love to see Nunes on a spit under Goldman’s questioning, you’re probably right. I believe after Monday’s court date we may know more. 

Also, Mitch and the Senate approved a budget extension through December or this whole thing could’ve been shut down. That may have cost Pelosi a quid. 

Edited November 23, 2019 by Mrs Whiggins
Clarity

[atomheartbevo 89668]

Man, lots of not-so-nice-to-Nunes stuff is all over twitter.  Chalupa doing some nice trolling.

#DevinNunesGotCaught

#NunesResign

#DirtyDevin

are all trending heavily on twitter.

 

[Bozo_Casanova 26460]

There’s a spectrum. MMT advocates are on the opposite end from people like Austrians. I think it’s an ideology that would hasten our downfall if enacted in full.

MMT is garbage, but the Republican fiscal posture at the moment is essentially what MMT would look like in practice.

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

Nunes being an Ag guy makes him seem like a California/Iowa Rick Perry-sharp but not sharp enough to keep his tracks covered. At least Perry is somewhat personable when you meet him. Although I’ve never met Nunes, he strikes me as a jerk. 

Wonder if they can get a hashtag trending with Ron Johnson? He is in this deep, too, but not on this committee. (Foreign relations is one of the ones on which he serves) He wields a stick behind the scenes, his state is a swing state, and IIRC one of the OMB dudes in charge of the foreign aid to Ukraine worked with him in Wisconsin for the GOP. 

[Bozo_Casanova 26460]

Man, lots of not-so-nice-to-Nunes stuff is all over twitter.  Chalupa doing some nice trolling.
#DevinNunesGotCaught
#NunesResign
#DirtyDevin
are all trending heavily on twitter.
 

The most surprising Chalupa since Wang ZhiZhi

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

Alexandra Chalupa is what happens when your fleaflicker gets intercepted. Here’s hoping she takes it to the endzone. 

[Nice Guy Eddie 13512]

Interesting commentary from Smerconish on CNN discussing a Washpo columnist who argued for the Dems to pursue censure instead of impeachment. Only 1 president, Jackson, has ever been censured for misconduct.

a censure would potentially get some bipartisan support because the theoretical bar is much lower. Voting no to censure is saying the president did nothing wrong at all. Some in the gop have said or hinted they don’t like how the president acted but they don’t think it rises to impeachment.

going through with impeachment is somewhat a fools errand. The senate isn’t going to convict trump. The evidence isn’t there for them to act because the people with the strongest evidence are never going to talk. Or not until the trump admin is done.

censure with some republican support might be the best victory for Dems with the 2020 election coming up.

[WhatTheBuck 28781]

11 hours ago, Bruh Man said:

Ever since George W. Bush's presidency, Republicans have been believing more & more in the UNITARY EXECUTIVE THEORY.

The unitary executive theory essentially means that "the president is king and if the president orders you to do something, you do it no matter what".

Of course, Republicans only believe in this theory when there's a Republican in the White House. Also, Congress in the past 50 years has delegated more and more power to the Executive Branch (aka the Presidency).

Recommended reading, it's both explanatory and predictive:

[atomheartbevo 89668]

5 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

going through with impeachment is somewhat a fools errand. The senate isn’t going to convict trump. The evidence isn’t there for them to act because the people with the strongest evidence are never going to talk. Or not until the trump admin is done.

Impeachment forces Republicans to publicly defend Trump.  Censure does as well, but I don't know that most Americans would understand it.

[Loch Ness Monster 3533]

America is so fawked

Dems and Republicans live in completely different realities now in the social media age. Trump the criminal has like 90% support among GOP voters which is insane. Pretty much forces most politicians to go with party over country. 

[WhatTheBuck 28781]

8 hours ago, Bookman said:

We need to investigate Barr, Pompeo, Pence, and our dear ex-Governor, Rick Perry.

And Mick Mulvaney. May as well throw in Graham and Grassley too. 

[Longhorn_Fan68 33870]

22 minutes ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

Nunes being an Ag guy makes him seem like a California/Iowa Rick Perry-sharp but not sharp enough to keep his tracks covered. At least Perry is somewhat personable when you meet him. Although I’ve never met Nunes, he strikes me as a jerk.

Wonder if they can get a hashtag trending with Ron Johnson? He is in this deep, too, but not on this committee. (Foreign relations is one of the ones on which he serves) He wields a stick behind the scenes, his state is a swing state, and IIRC one of the OMB dudes in charge of the foreign aid to Ukraine worked with him in Wisconsin for the GOP. 

This is seriously his profile pic on his site. He's the king of resting bitch face

 

[Bookman 4639]

I moved this last year and my U.S. Representative is now Will Hurd. I just sent him a strongly-worded letter.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13512]

5 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

Impeachment forces Republicans to publicly defend Trump.  Censure does as well, but I don't know that most Americans would understand it.

The defense is only up to a point.  If McConnell is sure he has the votes, he only has to let the house dem managers present their case for a few days, and then hold a 5 minute vote and go about their business.

i can’t imagine any scenario where 1 gop senator breaks rank. After all something like 20 gop senators are needed to convict trump so one falling on their sword is pointless from their political point of view.

but if the House GOP tells Pelosi that they will give her a some gop censure votes in exchange to drop impeachment, both sides can declare victory and move onto 2020. We need cooler heads to prevail and someone act like adults. 

[Bookman 4639]

Democrats have to impeach. That's why the American people gave the House to them.

[atomheartbevo 89668]

2 minutes ago, Loch Ness Monster said:

America is so fawked

Dems and Republicans live in completely different realities now in the social media age. Trump the criminal has like 90% support among GOP voters which is insane. Pretty much forces most politicians to go with party over country. 

Does he actually have 90% among GOP voters?  Because he and the rest of the GOP do not act like next year is a sure bet for them.  They are not campaigning from what looks like a position of strength - they are not telling people why they should vote for the GOP, they are trying to gin up reasons not to vote for the Dems, and they look cowardly in doing it.

[Longhorn_Fan68 33870]

37 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

The defense is only up to a point.  If McConnell is sure he has the votes, he only has to let the house dem managers present their case for a few days, and then hold a 5 minute vote and go about their business.

i can’t imagine any scenario where 1 gop senator breaks rank. After all something like 20 gop senators are needed to convict trump so one falling on their sword is pointless from their political point of view.

but if the House GOP tells Pelosi that they will give her a some gop censure votes in exchange to drop impeachment, both sides can declare victory and move onto 2020. We need cooler heads to prevail and someone act like adults. 

That sounds like capitulation to a traitor and his party. You forget the 6000 other crimes we're not talking about (yet). As more info comes to light and with the success of the American Oversight FOIA subpoena, i think it's wise to hold tight. Also, Mueller. If they capitulate now and refuse to bring forward articles, this president will see that as license to do whatever he wants for the next year - even more so than he does now. 

Edited November 23, 2019 by Longhorn_Fan68

[triplehorn 2664]

The House has multiple options moving forward.  So much is still in the balance that will inform what path they take.  
 

Access to Mueller grand jury materials, ability to compel witnesses in Mueller/Trump obstruction, tax and bank financials are all pending with potential final decisions on some matters as early as Monday.  
 

Hard evidence of Trump tax fraud, bank fraud, and or laundering illicit foreign cash is GOP Senate’s worst nightmare to acquit.

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

31 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Interesting commentary from Smerconish on CNN discussing a Washpo columnist who argued for the Dems to pursue censure instead of impeachment. Only 1 president, Jackson, has ever been censured for misconduct.

a censure would potentially get some bipartisan support because the theoretical bar is much lower. Voting no to censure is saying the president did nothing wrong at all. Some in the gop have said or hinted they don’t like how the president acted but they don’t think it rises to impeachment.

going through with impeachment is somewhat a fools errand. The senate isn’t going to convict trump. The evidence isn’t there for them to act because the people with the strongest evidence are never going to talk. Or not until the trump admin is done.

censure with some republican support might be the best victory for Dems with the 2020 election coming up.

Can’t Roberts compel them to testify in the Senate trial?

[Nice Guy Eddie 13512]

18 minutes ago, Bookman said:

Democrats have to impeach. That's why the American people gave the House to them.

I don’t know if I agree with that. Everyone voted for democrat reps so they could impeach trump so that the senate could acquit? 

[horncyclist 1387]

11 minutes ago, triplehorn said:

The House has multiple options moving forward.  So much is still in the balance that will inform what path they take.  
 

Access to Mueller grand jury materials, ability to compel witnesses in Mueller/Trump obstruction, tax and bank financials are all pending with potential final decisions on some matters as early as Monday.  
 

Hard evidence of Trump tax fraud, bank fraud, and or laundering illicit foreign cash is GOP Senate’s worst nightmare to acquit.

Seems like they can impeach on the Ukraine stuff while continuing to pursue evidence of other crimes. 

The corruption of this President--and the degree to which he has made people just accept it--is absolutely staggering. i think the frog in a water slowly coming to a boil here is accurate. If you were to go back to everyone's state of mind in 2015 and dump everything Trump is proven to have done on them all at once, their head would explode. But there's this pattern of (1) something shocking coming out, (2) denial, denial, denial, (3) obfuscate, obfuscate, obfuscate, (4) deflect/distract, (5) suppress criticism and (6) move on with the behavior normalized. On step 5, you can see it this go around with the attacks against Mitt Romney following some public criticism. Two months later, he's having lunch with Trump to make sure he's in line. It's all insane and I don't know how to respond anymore, other than support politicians willing and able to attack it, and vote. 

 

 

[Longhorn_Fan68 33870]

4 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

I don’t know if I agree with that. Everyone voted for democrat reps so they could impeach trump so that the senate could acquit? 

Surely you have the intellectual capacity to peel away a few more layers than that, no?

[Red Five 40858]

Emoluments has been a slam dunk for years now. Are they gonna get around to that anytime soon? 

[horncyclist 1387]

44 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Interesting commentary from Smerconish on CNN discussing a Washpo columnist who argued for the Dems to pursue censure instead of impeachment. Only 1 president, Jackson, has ever been censured for misconduct.

a censure would potentially get some bipartisan support because the theoretical bar is much lower. Voting no to censure is saying the president did nothing wrong at all. Some in the gop have said or hinted they don’t like how the president acted but they don’t think it rises to impeachment.

going through with impeachment is somewhat a fools errand. The senate isn’t going to convict trump. The evidence isn’t there for them to act because the people with the strongest evidence are never going to talk. Or not until the trump admin is done.

censure with some republican support might be the best victory for Dems with the 2020 election coming up.

TThere would be zero republican votes for censure too. Don't kid yourself.  But still might be the way to go to avoid dragging this out and fatigue pushing people away from removal. The problem is that this conduct--jeopardizing national security and disobeying the law to compel a foreign leader to damage your political opponent--is abosolutely deserving of removal. I

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

What I don’t know, is what talks McConnell and Pelosi are having. They don’t have to like each other to reach an understanding. They both know citizens are agitated and restless. We are sitting on a time bomb and some idiots gave a toddler matches. 

As usual, I waffle between agreeing with my pragmatic spouse whose attitude is just go on because it’s already going to be acquittal and my own which is expose and expose to leave no doubt. Plus, the health issues of Trump are becoming readily apparent. Without him tweeting, his aides can attempt to continue that charade but only for a while. 

No rallies, no phone calls, and things will head south for the sycophants. Stall? Speed up? We’re at a fork in the road and both choices lead to a cliff. 

[horncyclist 1387]

Also, I'd have to think well drawn up articles of impeachment paired with a ton of attack ads would cause permanent political damage to Trump and the GOP. Schiff has proven their case. Give it to the american people in the plainest terms in articles of impeachment--let McConnel do whatever traitorous shit he wants-- and then move on to 2020.

[Longhorn_Fan68 33870]

Keep going. It's the only way any of us can go forward with a clean conscience. EVERYONE knows this fuck and a fuckton of his cohorts are guilty. Why they choose to shelter him remains to be seen. The only logical reason would be they're all dirty too. If we relent and cave to a weak enemy in a strong, but weakening position, then we truly have lost the republic. 

[Nice Guy Eddie 13512]

1 minute ago, horncyclist said:

TThere would be zero republican votes for censure too. Don't kid yourself.  But still might be the way to go to avoid dragging this out and fatigue pushing people away from removal. The problem is that this conduct--jeopardizing national security and disobeying the law to compel a foreign leader to damage your political opponent--is abosolutely deserving of removal. I

I was arguing that would be the deal.  McCarthy encourages or allows some gop house members, especially in tough election fights, to vote for censure. If they don’t, then it’s immediately followed by an impeachment vote.

but I also get that they’re on many on the left that want to run head first into the wall to get an impeachment.

regardless of what trump did, it’s going to take Mulvaney or Pompeo describing trump ordering a code red bribe to get a senate conviction.  Even a damaging Bolton testimony would be written off as a disgruntled, fired employee.  

[Brisketexan 105139]

There’s a spectrum. MMT advocates are on the opposite end from people like Austrians. I think it’s an ideology that would hasten our downfall if enacted in full.

MMT is garbage, but the Republican fiscal posture at the moment is essentially what MMT would look like in practice.

Yeah, umm, GR, please DO tell what monetary/economic theory that your GodTrump has brought to the table and executed. Seriously, this is going to be FASCINATING. Bonus points if you can make it sound at all coherent.

Spin away, GR, we await your tales. Dis gon be gud.

[David Dennison 18860]

20 minutes ago, Red Five said:

Emoluments has been a slam dunk for years now. Are they gonna get around to that anytime soon? 

No.

[David Dennison 18860]

15 minutes ago, horncyclist said:

Also, I'd have to think well drawn up articles of impeachment paired with a ton of attack ads would cause permanent political damage to Trump and the GOP. Schiff has proven their case. Give it to the american people in the plainest terms in articles of impeachment--let McConnel do whatever traitorous shit he wants-- and then move on to 2020.

Democrats gonna Democrat.

https://www.politico.com/news/2019/11/22/democrats-house-impeachment-moderates-072972

[David Dennison 18860]

1 hour ago, atomheartbevo said:

Even with all off the documents that were just released?  And with the Nunes stuff?

I think so. They are in recess until after Thanksgiving. They want to get articles voted out of Judiciary by mid-December and have a vote on the floor before the end of the year.

I don't think the Intelligence Committee is going to have any more hearings.

Personally, I don't think they need to go this quickly, but that seems to be what they want to do.

[wildcat09 29354]

1 hour ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Interesting commentary from Smerconish on CNN discussing a Washpo columnist who argued for the Dems to pursue censure instead of impeachment. Only 1 president, Jackson, has ever been censured for misconduct.

a censure would potentially get some bipartisan support because the theoretical bar is much lower. Voting no to censure is saying the president did nothing wrong at all. Some in the gop have said or hinted they don’t like how the president acted but they don’t think it rises to impeachment.

going through with impeachment is somewhat a fools errand. The senate isn’t going to convict trump. The evidence isn’t there for them to act because the people with the strongest evidence are never going to talk. Or not until the trump admin is done.

censure with some republican support might be the best victory for Dems with the 2020 election coming up.

[Red Five 40858]

I guess I'm just naive, but it seems to me that if we're going to impeach him, we should probably include all of the impeachable offenses he's committed over the past three years. 

1) Abuse of power (followed by a handful of bullet points)

2) Obstruction of justice (followed by a lot of bullet points)

3) Emoluments (many, many, many bullet points)

Is the concern that Americans can't count past one?

[TwiceHorn 31471]

47 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

Can’t Roberts compel them to testify in the Senate trial?

I think he could.  But first someone in the Senate would have to ask a person to testify voluntarily.  Not sure how likely that is.

[David Dennison 18860]

1 minute ago, Red Five said:

I guess I'm just naive, but it seems to me that if we're going to impeach him, we should probably include all of the impeachable offenses he's committed over the past three years. 

1) Abuse of power (followed by a handful of bullet points)

2) Obstruction of justice (followed by a lot of bullet points)

3) Emoluments (many, many, many bullet points)

Is the concern that Americans can't count past one?

The concern is the calendar. Leadership does not want to drag this any further into 2020 than it has to.