impeachment inquiry hearings thread

[Biff Tannen 45766]

They will just take the same stance they did with Cohen. “Oh he’s not a reliable witness. He’s the liar.”  
 

It will work and the election will still decide this. And the election is not going to be free or fair. 

[Irwin F Fletcher 3551]

They will just take the same stance they did with Cohen. “Oh he’s not a reliable witness. He’s the liar.”  
 
It will work and the election will still decide this. And the election is not going to be free or fair. 

We should point out that this is who Trump surrounds himself with. The corrupt, or those that are easily corrupted. Heck, if you don't end up resigning from Team Trump you eventually end up in jail.

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

@Captainant are you reading the documents the HPSCI sent to the Judiciary Committee? It's the extraction report that contains the texts from Parnas phone. I tried wading through it, found the ones that have been in the media, but a lot are in Russian.

390 pages long but here and there it is interesting. Some is blacked out. Especially in July. Wonder why? After July it skips to September. For somebody that seemed married to his phone, Lev apparently decided to stop texting and calling people for two months since there's no messages in the documents then. I can't quite put my finger on that Mr. Barr as to why that would be.

Harry Sargeant (the big Energy GOP donor who has his finger in this pie) complaining about how it is expensive "flying you guys everywhere Lev."

Best exchange that needs to be amplified is this one below.

Exchange between Parnas and Sargeant:

LP: Now we know who f*cked everything up.

HS: F*cking idiot Bolton.

Get that on the airwaves and maybe Bolton will get his dander up a little?

 

 

Edited January 16, 2020 by Mrs Whiggins
Grammar

[Born to Run 6583]

Fuck that, I'm so fucking tired of people repeating that defeated fucking bitchass tweet. 

I'm tired of it being accurate. See Susan Collins today for example.
See right wing propaganda making the rounds where people I used to respect parrot how evil socialist libs love Muslims and murder.

Ledge is crowded for good reason

[Born to Run 6583]

Well, we would've acted on it if the House had released this information earlier. I mean why are their investigators so bad at their job. Oh well, whatever you need Donald. We cower beneath your massive cheeseburger fed shadow. 

And this.

[Goredho 17510]

“Democrats did an incomplete job” is nicer than what I have to say about their weak and pitiful impeachment execution.

This is not politics, a bitter partisan feud or even a street fight.  This is the bell-tower knife fight at the end of Saving Private Ryan.

There are no rules.  There is only murder and survival or your own death.  That is the position the GOP is fighting from.  The democrats?  They are fretting over the lack of decorum!

Impeachment never had a chance of resulting in a removal and the opportunity to use it to expose the President’s malfeasance to an apathetic public weary of partisan conflict has been squandered away.  The 60% of America that doesn’t have a Cheeto mustache has to turn out at 66% or greater to have a chance to send Trump packing.  They won’t.

Get ready for Trump 2 Aryan Boogaloo!  Yahoo!

Edited January 16, 2020 by Goredho

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

Your reference @Goredho to the bell-tower knife fight- great scene from a great movie.

After skimming the document with the texts from Parnas' phone last night, finally gave up and went to sleep. I wish I could read the Russian bits but failing that, the whole thing reads a little like a man (Parnas) who is out of a movie (continuing a movie theme) by (what's that director's name? Ritchie?). On the one hand, you look at those texts, and what the DOJ left in/didn't black out and you're left with a man who was frequently in conversations with people like Sargeant (very well-connected, very wealthy, very powerful) texting back and forth about 'rescuing America' getting rid of people who are working against our country,' and discussing top news stories that were favorable to the President. Sounds very patriotic on the surface and I'm sure that is going to be the spin by the right wing media. So you think, is this guy a pawn? How smart is he?

And I don't have an answer. He was able to gain access to the President, the President's attorney, the top government officials in Ukraine both past and present, and very well-connected and powerful GOP donors. Some of this was facilitated by American born citizens like Correia and the money provided to him by the Russian/Ukrainian oligarch(s). As he was texting, at what level did he know what he was doing? And did he know why he was doing it (beyond making himself some money)?

Regardless, as you scroll through the texts, it's a little surreal. How many American citizens (naturalized like Parnas or American by birth) that can just casually refer to getting an Ambassador removed?

"What did you do today Mrs. Whiggins?"

Me: "Oh, I am exhausted. The AC unit went out and I had to call the technician and by the way, that bitch is gone. We finally got her out so we can get stuff done. Now we know who f*cked everything up. Oh and you have a dentist appointment on the 25th at 9:00."

I know there are some super smart, super evil men behind the scenes here. I know there are people obstructing and distorting and controlling what information gets out there. But figuring out the chain of who is truly calling the shots and who is being moved around the board is crazy.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 16, 2020 by Mrs Whiggins
Addition

[Captainant 27972]

Interesting development... Ukraine is now investigating Parnas' claims of surveiling Yovanovich

https://abcnews.go.com/amp/International/ukraine-opens-criminal-investigation-surveillance-marie-yovanovitch/story?id=68324113&__twitter_impression=true

Relevant excerpt:

Ukrainian police are looking to see if there was surveillance and, if so, whether it had violated Ukrainian law or international conventions obliging host countries to protect foreign diplomats there, the interior ministry said.

"Ukraine's position is not to interfere in the domestic affairs of the United States of America. However, the published records contain the fact of possible violation of the legislation of Ukraine and the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations, which protects the rights of a diplomat in the territory of another country," the ministry's statement said.

"After analyzing these materials, the National Police of Ukraine upon their publication started criminal proceedings under part 2 of Art. 163 (Violation of the secrecy of correspondence, telephone conversations, telegraph or other correspondence) and part 1 of Art. 182 (Unlawful collection, storage, use of confidential information about a person, violation of privacy) of the Criminal Code of Ukraine," the statement continues.

The ministry said it was checking whether any Ukrainian or international laws had been broken "or was it just bravado and fake in an informal conversation between two U.S. citizens."

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

14 minutes ago, Captainant said:

The ministry said it was checking whether any Ukrainian or international laws had been broken "or was it just bravado and fake in an informal conversation between two U.S. citizens."

If the ministry decides it is "bravado and fake," what does the US get to decide? Maybe I shouldn't ask that question as I don't want to know the answer.

[Captainant 27972]

3 minutes ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

If the ministry decides it is "bravado and fake," what does the US get to decide? Maybe I shouldn't ask that question as I don't want to know the answer.

I'm fairly confident that is already Bill Barr's position on the issue. 

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

I am extremely curious as to what the missing two months from the cell phone extraction contained.

[Tuco 5084]

51 minutes ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

I know there are some super smart, super evil men behind the scenes here. I know there are people obstructing and distorting and controlling what information gets out there. But figuring out the chain of who is truly calling the shots and who is being moved around the board is crazy.

From Private Ryan to MASH...I remember there was this one episode that tracked a series of trades and deals.  I think Radar was trying to get Potter some tomato juice, or something like that, and Klinger gave up some stockings for a weekend pass...I don't know; it's been a while.  But I think the plot of this fuckery resembles that episode a lot more than any grand scheme with evil geniuses operating behind the scenes.  Different assholes with different motivations, with Lev in the middle of it trying to deal out favors and money to make it happen.  Look at the different characters on what they want, and what they can provide. 

Lev/Igor: One of the big mischaracterizations is that they were working for Rudy, that they were his henchmen.  They weren't.  They were getting paid by Firtash, and they were paying Rudy, not the other way around. Henchmen don't pay their masters.  I think they were basically small time grifters, who Firtash used because they had US citizenship.  As the story continued, they may have cut side deals for their own profit, but their main loyalty was (and probably still is) to Firtash.  They want cash, and they do the work to put deals together. 

Rudy: You all remember Cohen.  In addition to the stuff that got him sent to prison, he was also getting paid by various corporations - domestic and foreign - to influence Trump.  In another era, this would have been a scandal in and of itself.  When Cohen went to prison, I think Rudy saw a business opportunity, and that is how I see his role in this -working Trump for his clients' advantage.  He's rich, but he's not Firtash/oligarch/oilman rich.  He is working for a fee, not a grand investment opportunity this corruption will allow. He wants cash, and can provide influence in the White House. 

Firtash: Currently waiting extradition to the US for unrelated corruption in an Indian deal.  Obviously, he wants some influence in the DOJ to slow that down.  Less obviously...in January 2019, Poroshenko's government was moving to make changes to the Naftogaz board and to forgive 100s of millions of dollars that Firtash owed.  Can you guess who squashed it?  Marie Yovanovitch, carrying out the official US policy and seeing these moves as backsliding towards corruption.  Yovanovitch had previously worked against such moves that she (...we...the US) believed would result in more corruption.  As early as 2016, she countered a move to turn over the state owned pipeline to Ukrtransgaz.  Part of her work was fighting corruption in the energy sector.  Firtash was a corrupt guy in the energy sector.  Firtash wanted her gone, and he can provide cash and connections in Ukraine. 

Trump: This is the part that everyone is focused on.  Trump wanted a politically damaging investigation of Burisma and Bidens publicly announced, and he wanted to undermine the conclusion that Russia interfered in the 2016 election.  He also wanted payback for Ukrainians who provided evidence against Manafort. He can provide control of the US Embassy in Ukraine, funding to Ukraine, weapons, control of the DOJ, sanctions on Nordstream II, etc...I get heartburn just typing that all out. 

Perry, and the oilmen behind Perry:  They want to export liquified natural gas.  There are few things that will help that, including changes in the Naftogaz board and blocking Nordstream 2. They can provide money to the campaign of anyone that helps with that. 

Prosecutor General Lutshenko.  The PG's office was under scrutiny for a long time, even prior to Lutshenko.  Under US pressure, Ukraine started the NABU (National Anti-Corruption Bureau) which was a rival group that focused on corruption.  Yovanovitch, continuing with the US policy on anti-corruption, continued to criticize the PG's office, including specific officers under Lutshenko.  When Zelensky won, he was asked who would be his PG, and he quipped something like "I don't know, but it won't start with L and rhyme with utshenko."  Lutshenko wanted Yovanovitch fired, and could provide a public announcement of a Burisma/Biden investigation.  He did, in fact, announce they were reopening the investigation into Burisma in March of 2019.  This was the same time that Solomon ran the hit pieces on Yovanovitch, quoting Lutshenko.  Yovanovitch was fired on 4/24, about a month later.   But Zelensky was elected on 4/21, which meant Lutshenko wasn't going to be in position to do much about an investigation. 

So, I think Trump traded the removal of Yovanovitch for the investigation of Burisma.  But he didn't really get paid in full.  Lutshenko's later backed off his statements, and Zelensky was now in control of the government anyway.  So, on the Art of the Deal Part 2, he didn't want some Prosecutor General working with The Hill, he wanted the President of Ukraine to "get in front of a microphone" to announce the investigations.  The removal of Yovanovitch opens the way for the oilmen and Ukrainian oligarchs  working with Lev/Parnas and Perry to try to restructure the Ukrainian energy sector to allows for easier access to markets (for the oilmen) and easier ability to skim the profits (for the oligarchs.)  It's just a collection of greedy fucking morons.  

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

I like your focus and explanation, after a while I lose track of which piece of the puzzle goes where.

So maybe they subpoena Harry Sargeant? He's not Gordon Sondland, which was some wishy washy testimony but trying once again to see if you can apply pressure at the joints?

What am I saying, Bill Barr would get that squashed wouldn't he?

 

[triplehorn 2664]

7 minutes ago, Tuco said:

From Private Ryan to MASH...I remember there was this one episode that tracked a series of trades and deals.  I think Radar was trying to get Potter some tomato juice, or something like that, and Klinger gave up some stockings for a weekend pass...I don't know; it's been a while.  But I think the plot of this fuckery resembles that episode a lot more than any grand scheme with evil geniuses operating behind the scenes.  Different assholes with different motivations, with Lev in the middle of it trying to deal out favors and money to make it happen.  Look at the different characters on what they want, and what they can provide. 

Lev/Igor: One of the big mischaracterizations is that they were working for Rudy, that they were his henchmen.  They weren't.  They were getting paid by Firtash, and they were paying Rudy, not the other way around. Henchmen don't pay their masters.  I think they were basically small time grifters, who Firtash used because they had US citizenship.  As the story continued, they may have cut side deals for their own profit, but their main loyalty was (and probably still is) to Firtash.  They want cash, and they do the work to put deals together. 

Rudy: You all remember Cohen.  In addition to the stuff that got him sent to prison, he was also getting paid by various corporations - domestic and foreign - to influence Trump.  In another era, this would have been a scandal in and of itself.  When Cohen went to prison, I think Rudy saw a business opportunity, and that is how I see his role in this -working Trump for his clients' advantage.  He's rich, but he's not Firtash/oligarch/oilman rich.  He is working for a fee, not a grand investment opportunity this corruption will allow. He wants cash, and can provide influence in the White House. 

Firtash: Currently waiting extradition to the US for unrelated corruption in an Indian deal.  Obviously, he wants some influence in the DOJ to slow that down.  Less obviously...in January 2019, Poroshenko's government was moving to make changes to the Naftogaz board and to forgive 100s of millions of dollars that Firtash owed.  Can you guess who squashed it?  Marie Yovanovitch, carrying out the official US policy and seeing these moves as backsliding towards corruption.  Yovanovitch had previously worked against such moves that she (...we...the US) believed would result in more corruption.  As early as 2016, she countered a move to turn over the state owned pipeline to Ukrtransgaz.  Part of her work was fighting corruption in the energy sector.  Firtash was a corrupt guy in the energy sector.  Firtash wanted her gone, and he can provide cash and connections in Ukraine. 

Trump: This is the part that everyone is focused on.  Trump wanted a politically damaging investigation of Burisma and Bidens publicly announced, and he wanted to undermine the conclusion that Russia interfered in the 2016 election.  He also wanted payback for Ukrainians who provided evidence against Manafort. He can provide control of the US Embassy in Ukraine, funding to Ukraine, weapons, control of the DOJ, sanctions on Nordstream II, etc...I get heartburn just typing that all out. 

Perry, and the oilmen behind Perry:  They want to export liquified natural gas.  There are few things that will help that, including changes in the Naftogaz board and blocking Nordstream 2. They can provide money to the campaign of anyone that helps with that. 

Prosecutor General Lutshenko.  The PG's office was under scrutiny for a long time, even prior to Lutshenko.  Under US pressure, Ukraine started the NABU (National Anti-Corruption Bureau) which was a rival group that focused on corruption.  Yovanovitch, continuing with the US policy on anti-corruption, continued to criticize the PG's office, including specific officers under Lutshenko.  When Zelensky won, he was asked who would be his PG, and he quipped something like "I don't know, but it won't start with L and rhyme with utshenko."  Lutshenko wanted Yovanovitch fired, and could provide a public announcement of a Burisma/Biden investigation.  He did, in fact, announce they were reopening the investigation into Burisma in March of 2019.  This was the same time that Solomon ran the hit pieces on Yovanovitch, quoting Lutshenko.  Yovanovitch was fired on 4/24, about a month later.   But Zelensky was elected on 4/21, which meant Lutshenko wasn't going to be in position to do much about an investigation. 

So, I think Trump traded the removal of Yovanovitch for the investigation of Burisma.  But he didn't really get paid in full.  Lutshenko's later backed off his statements, and Zelensky was now in control of the government anyway.  So, on the Art of the Deal Part 2, he didn't want some Prosecutor General working with The Hill, he wanted the President of Ukraine to "get in front of a microphone" to announce the investigations.  The removal of Yovanovitch opens the way for the oilmen and Ukrainian oligarchs  working with Lev/Parnas and Perry to try to restructure the Ukrainian energy sector to allows for easier access to markets (for the oilmen) and easier ability to skim the profits (for the oligarchs.)  It's just a collection of greedy fucking morons.  

Good take.  But there is a most conspicuous omission from your roster of key players.  Putin.  Probably the most interested party of all.

[triplehorn 2664]

How about the revelation last night that Lev Parnas was negotiating a quid pro quo between Trump camp and Firtash ---> Firtash's extradition to the US for criminal prosecution "would be taken care of" in exchange for some kind of dirt said from Firtash to implicate top Mueller investigation manager Andrew Weissmann.  Making the Firtash US extradition go away would have to incorporate Bill Barr.  

As a Republic, it's these kinds of revelations that signal we're toast if nothing happens.

[horncyclist 1391]

2 minutes ago, triplehorn said:

How about the revelation last night that Lev Parnas was negotiating a quid pro quo between Trump camp and Firtash ---> Firtash's extradition to the US for criminal prosecution "would be taken care of" in exchange for some kind of dirt said from Firtash to implicate top Mueller investigation manager Andrew Weissmann.  Making the Firtash US extradition go away would have to incorporate Bill Barr.  

As a Republic, it's these kinds of revelations that signal we're toast if nothing happens.

If you have a whole political party--one with significant power--  become a party to the rampant crime and corruption, then nothing happens. You're going to see a "trial" where a majority of the jurors are co-conspirators. It's so insane where we are right now and we've just crept up to it like a frog in a pot of water creeping to a boil. 

[triplehorn 2664]

And the 'why now' of Lev giving Maddow the high profile interview ?  It's probably multiple reasons.  For one, SDNY has a shit ton of evidence.  The interview could serve a function of Lev signaling what they've got (and to prepare accordingly).  But more directly, Lev told Maddow that he felt more safe, as in still breathing, if he came out with what he knew.  Recall what made Parnas jump was when he heard Trump publicly tell the world he didn't know Lev.  That's when Lev knew he was regarded as a liability who potentially was about to be tied off, literally.

[Js1 85753]

 

[Tuco 5084]

17 minutes ago, triplehorn said:

How about the revelation last night that Lev Parnas was negotiating a quid pro quo between Trump camp and Firtash ---> Firtash's extradition to the US for criminal prosecution "would be taken care of" in exchange for some kind of dirt said from Firtash to implicate top Mueller investigation manager Andrew Weissmann.  Making the Firtash US extradition go away would have to incorporate Bill Barr.  

As a Republic, it's these kinds of revelations that signal we're toast if nothing happens.

I hadn't actually heard that one.  Certainly it was something that seemed likely, but I would hope Lev has some documentation on it.  Because I certainly don't trust him, even when he is saying something I like. 

26 minutes ago, triplehorn said:

Good take.  But there is a most conspicuous omission from your roster of key players.  Putin.  Probably the most interested party of all.

Putin.  What he wants:  Nordstream 2 (which puts him at odds with the oilmen), dropping of anti-Russian sanctions (which is helped by undermining the conclusion that Russian interfered in 2016 election), and more corruption in Ukraine (which provides ways to buy off officials.)  I don't know how directly involved he is.  If he is, I would think it's through Firtash, who made his fortune from a sweetheart deal with Putin. 

[atomheartbevo 90054]

11 hours ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

390 pages long but here and there it is interesting. Some is blacked out. Especially in July. Wonder why? After July it skips to September. For somebody that seemed married to his phone, Lev apparently decided to stop texting and calling people for two months since there's no messages in the documents then. I can't quite put my finger on that Mr. Barr as to why that would be.

I'm not saying that stuff about the perfect phone call and all of that didn't exist on one of his his phones, but he had multiple phones, and this was an iPhone 11 we are talking about.

If it was an iPhone 11's data that was turned over to the House, well iPhone 11's weren't available until September.  

He could have easily bought a new iPhone 11 in September and restored an older physical backup (June/July) to it, which would give you a gap of a few months - people like Parnas may not be using iCloud for their backups and may not be using iCloud to keep things in sync, so there might not be continuity across their phones.

Also, if he's traveling a lot, since he doesn't have diplomatic privileges, he's not going to be taking sensitive phones in and out of the US, because Customs/Border Patrol can and do look through your devices when you come back into the country.  The last thing somebody like him (a naturalized US citizen from Ukraine) needs is Customs looking at who he's talking to, and through his photos, etc.  Edit: And somebody like him would be a prime candidate for having their devices searched when coming back).

Edited January 16, 2020 by atomheartbevo

[David Dennison 19120]

21 minutes ago, horncyclist said:

If you have a whole political party--one with significant power--  become a party to the rampant crime and corruption, then nothing happens. You're going to see a "trial" where a majority of the jurors are co-conspirators. It's so insane where we are right now and we've just crept up to it like a frog in a pot of water creeping to a boil. 

It's as simple as that. If Republicans don't break, the president can do whatever he wants. The only thing that will make Republicans break before the election is their base, and that's not happening.

Donald Trump is going to win the final round of Impeachment 2020. That's that.

If he gets re-elected and the Republicans hold the Senate, the strategy of stonewalling and obfuscation will have worked.

 

Edited January 16, 2020 by David Dennison

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

4 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

I'm not saying that stuff about the perfect phone call and all of that didn't exist on one of his his phones, but he had multiple phones, and this was an iPhone 11 we are talking about.

If it was an iPhone 11's data that was turned over to the House, well iPhone 11's weren't available until September.  

He could have easily bought a new iPhone 11 in September and restored an older physical backup (June/July) to it, which would give you a gap of a few months - people like Parnas may not be using iCloud for their backups and may not be using iCloud to keep things in sync, so there might not be continuity across their phones.

Also, if he's traveling a lot, since he doesn't have diplomatic privileges, he's not going to be taking sensitive phones in and out of the US, because Customs/Border Patrol can and do look through your devices when you come back into the country.  The last thing somebody like him (a naturalized US citizen from Ukraine) needs is Customs looking at who he's talking to, and through his photos, etc.  Edit: And somebody like him would be a prime candidate for having their devices searched when coming back).

That is a thoughtful nuance I had not even considered, thank you for that.

 

With respect to Putin; along with his power consolidation he is working on, his long term 'retirement' goal seems to exist of corralling the former Soviet states back under his dominion. Lot easier to do when America (Trump) says, 'yeah sure whatever pal,' and their guys can get a small slice of the pie.

[Brisketexan 105574]

Just now, David Dennison said:

It's as simple as that. If Republicans don't break, the president can do whatever he wants. The only thing that will make Republicans break before the election, is their base and that's not happening.

Donald Trump is going to win the final round of Impeachment 2020. That's that.

If he gets re-elected and the Republicans hold the Senate, the strategy of stonewalling and obfuscation will have worked.

 

Correct.

Quit trying to complicate this, folks.  It really is simple.  It doesn't matter what the facts are -- and there are more facts every fucking day.

What is 100% clear is that the next fact released could be a video of Trump personally taking a briefcase of cash from Putin, handing Putin our nuclear codes, and promising out loud to use US forces to murder anyone Putin asks us too, while confessing to already having done so with respect to persons X, Y, and Z.....and the GOP WILL NOT BREAK RANKS.  It's fucking omerta and total blood loyalty, people.  It's nothing new.  It's what criminal enterprises do.  It's working.  And it will continue to work.

They win.  Everyone else loses.  There's no way to end this that doesn't involve blood.  And there's no way it continues without consequence and doesn't result in blood.  Pretty nice, huh?

[triplehorn 2664]

5 minutes ago, Tuco said:

I hadn't actually heard that one.  Certainly it was something that seemed likely, but I would hope Lev has some documentation on it.  Because I certainly don't trust him, even when he is saying something I like. 

I don't think Lev even raises the issue unless he knows SDNY has the goods on that related matter.

 

6 minutes ago, Tuco said:

Putin.  What he wants:  Nordstream 2 (which puts him at odds with the oilmen), dropping of anti-Russian sanctions (which is helped by undermining the conclusion that Russian interfered in 2016 election), and more corruption in Ukraine (which provides ways to buy off officials.)  I don't know how directly involved he is.  If he is, I would think it's through Firtash, who made his fortune from a sweetheart deal with Putin. 

As you noted above, Lev is not a Trump henchman.  He works for Firtash, i.e. Putin.  It's Russian mob.  With that in mind, realize that while Lev is giving the appearance of full disclosure, there are likely more important people he's tied to who he will not rat out.  I expect Trump and Rudy have an expendable shelf life to Lev's bosses.

[David Dennison 19120]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

Correct.

Quit trying to complicate this, folks.  It really is simple.  It doesn't matter what the facts are -- and there are more facts every fucking day.

What is 100% clear is that the next fact released could be a video of Trump personally taking a briefcase of cash from Putin, handing Putin our nuclear codes, and promising out loud to use US forces to murder anyone Putin asks us too, while confessing to already having done so with respect to persons X, Y, and Z.....and the GOP WILL NOT BREAK RANKS.  It's fucking omerta and total blood loyalty, people.  It's nothing new.  It's what criminal enterprises do.  It's working.  And it will continue to work.

They win.  Everyone else loses.  There's no way to end this that doesn't involve blood.  And there's no way it continues without consequence and doesn't result in blood.  Pretty nice, huh?

This is where we part ways. I don't think it's going to involve blood. Americans are so blase about all of this that there hasn't been a single riot. Not one.

Nearly 200 cities saw civil unrest during LBJ's administration. Trump can barely inspire a large gathering of Democrats to make snarky posters.

[Brisketexan 105574]

5 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

This is where we part ways. I don't think it's going to involve blood. Americans are so blase about all of this that there hasn't been a single riot. Not one.

Nearly 200 cities saw civil unrest during LBJ's administration. Trump can barely inspire a large gathering of Democrats to make snarky posters.

Your snapshot is of where we are.  Mine is of our ultimate destination.  Arguing that the house hasn't burned down yet, there's not even a visible fire, is not a rebuttal to "we built a fucking house out of balsa wood soaked in gasoline, surrounded it with dry brush, and turned loose a herd of toddlers with lighters outside."  That ends in fire.

The GOP will not let go of power.  They will certainly not let go of it quietly -- they have too much to lose.  They are all-in on their criminal syndicate, and once you're in, you don't get out.

[TXSG8R 3362]

9 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

This is where we part ways. I don't think it's going to involve blood. Americans are so blase about all of this that there hasn't been a single riot. Not one.

Nearly 200 cities saw civil unrest during LBJ's administration. Trump can barely inspire a large gathering of Democrats to make snarky posters.

To be fair, there weren't any riots in LA until after the acquittal in 92.  I don't know that there's enough obvious evidence to get there yet, but if the Rs blatantly whitewash the trial, I think youll see more than snarky posters.  If we get Bolton and other damaging admin testimony during the trial and they still acquit him, it could lead to some serious protests IMO.  

Edited January 16, 2020 by TXSG8R

[Biff Tannen 45766]

Should we save Dennison a spot on The Ledge?  I think he will be wanting to join when this all plays out.

[David Dennison 19120]

3 minutes ago, TXSG8R said:

To be fair, there weren't any riots in LA until after the acquittal in 92.  I don't know that there's enough obvious evidence to get there yet, but if the Rs blatantly whitewash the trial, I think youll see more than snarky posters.  If we get Bolton and other damaging admin testimony during the trial and they still acquit him, it could lead to some serious protests IMO.  

I will be shocked if there is widespread protest about any of this.

[David Dennison 19120]

5 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Your snapshot is of where we are.  Mine is of our ultimate destination.  Arguing that the house hasn't burned down yet, there's not even a visible fire, is not a rebuttal to "we built a fucking house out of balsa wood soaked in gasoline, surrounded it with dry brush, and turned loose a herd of toddlers with lighters outside."  That ends in fire.

The GOP will not let go of power.  They will certainly not let go of it quietly -- they have too much to lose.  They are all-in on their criminal syndicate, and once you're in, you don't get out.

Madam Speaker thinks you are underestimating the power of the ballot box.

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

8 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

This is where we part ways. I don't think it's going to involve blood. Americans are so blase about all of this that there hasn't been a single riot. Not one.

Nearly 200 cities saw civil unrest during LBJ's administration. Trump can barely inspire a large gathering of Democrats to make snarky posters.

It's not the same as the civil unrest to which you refer, but Women's March 2020 in two days has a lot of cities on board. I didn't see Austin on their list, though. With social media, though, even marching and protesting gets distorted. Charlottesville, Portland, etc. Pretty soon, the bubble dwellers tune everything out except what they wish to hear.

[deech 2310]

19 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Correct.

Quit trying to complicate this, folks.  It really is simple.  It doesn't matter what the facts are -- and there are more facts every fucking day.

What is 100% clear is that the next fact released could be a video of Trump personally taking a briefcase of cash from Putin, handing Putin our nuclear codes, and promising out loud to use US forces to murder anyone Putin asks us too, while confessing to already having done so with respect to persons X, Y, and Z.....and the GOP WILL NOT BREAK RANKS.  It's fucking omerta and total blood loyalty, people.  It's nothing new.  It's what criminal enterprises do.  It's working.  And it will continue to work.

They win.  Everyone else loses.  There's no way to end this that doesn't involve blood.  And there's no way it continues without consequence and doesn't result in blood.  Pretty nice, huh?

I was in trial the last two days.  Getting caught up.  I mean let's openly talk about tracking a US Ambassador for a potential assassination and a co-conspirator in the Ukraine mess coming clean and implicating the AG and the VP.  

R's are like it's just your normal Thursday.

[Biff Tannen 45766]

21 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

This is where we part ways. I don't think it's going to involve blood. Americans are so blase about all of this that there hasn't been a single riot. Not one.

Nearly 200 cities saw civil unrest during LBJ's administration. Trump can barely inspire a large gathering of Democrats to make snarky posters.

 

7 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Madam Speaker thinks you are underestimating the power of the ballot box.

So they are too blase to demonstrate, but not too blase to vote?

[Brisketexan 105574]

11 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Madam Speaker thinks you are underestimating the power of the ballot box.

You underestimate the commitment of the GOP to void/interfere with/disenfranchise the ballot box.  The GOP in no sense believes in free and fair elections.  They know that free and fair elections would be their doom.  They will do anything and everything to prevent them.

[Pescado_Rojo 19453]

20 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

Should we save Dennison a spot on The Ledge?  I think he will be wanting to join when this all plays out.

okay, but if you're late to the ledge party you get stuck sitting on the pointy gargoyle covered in pigeon shit. 

[David Dennison 19120]

2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

You underestimate the commitment of the GOP to void/interfere with/disenfranchise the ballot box.  The GOP in no sense believes in free and fair elections.  They know that free and fair elections would be their doom.  They will do anything and everything to prevent them.

I don't underestimate that at all.

Democrats need to do everything they can to get people registered. Then they need to do everything they can to get out the vote. Donald Trump is president because people didn't vote. 

[Brisketexan 105574]

1 minute ago, David Dennison said:

I don't underestimate that at all.

Democrats need to do everything they can to get people registered. Then they need to do everything they can to get out the vote. Donald Trump is president because people didn't vote. 

And he'll be president again because 1) his people will show out in record numbers, because they are a full-on cult now, and 2) the GOP won't LET people vote in places they need to.  Oh, and throw a 3) in there -- the GOP is actually INVITING foreign interference with and manipulation of our elections.  So, no....they are going to cheat.  HARD.  And it will work.

[David Dennison 19120]

10 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

And he'll be president again because 1) his people will show out in record numbers, because they are a full-on cult now, and 2) the GOP won't LET people vote in places they need to.  Oh, and throw a 3) in there -- the GOP is actually INVITING foreign interference with and manipulation of our elections.  So, no....they are going to cheat.  HARD.  And it will work.

Or it won't. 

[Biff Tannen 45766]

1 minute ago, David Dennison said:

Or it won't. 

Let's say it doesn't.  Will we be smart enough to crack down on the Rs regardless?  Or will we just assume everything is back to normal and move on?  I know where my money is.

[elfenix 34385]

1 hour ago, Js1 said:

 

doooooooomed

[TXSG8R 3362]

Really curious to see what the Parnas and GAO stuff does to the daily presidential tracking polls.  Maybe it will move the needle enough to get more of the Rs to take the senate trial seriously.  

[Red Five 41070]

Just now, TXSG8R said:

Really curious to see what the Parnas and GAO stuff does to the daily presidential tracking polls.  Maybe it will move the needle enough to get more of the Rs to take the senate trial seriously.  

hahaha

[Goredho 17510]

1 hour ago, David Dennison said:

This is where we part ways. I don't think it's going to involve blood. Americans are so blase about all of this that there hasn't been a single riot. Not one.

Nearly 200 cities saw civil unrest during LBJ's administration. Trump can barely inspire a large gathering of Democrats to make snarky posters.

 

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

Your snapshot is of where we are.  Mine is of our ultimate destination.  Arguing that the house hasn't burned down yet, there's not even a visible fire, is not a rebuttal to "we built a fucking house out of balsa wood soaked in gasoline, surrounded it with dry brush, and turned loose a herd of toddlers with lighters outside."  That ends in fire.

The GOP will not let go of power.  They will certainly not let go of it quietly -- they have too much to lose.  They are all-in on their criminal syndicate, and once you're in, you don't get out.

You are both right.  In the short term nothing happens.  The majority of Americans aren’t aware, those that are aware are concerned but have yet to feel effects in their daily life.  The GOP is using the economy and tax cuts as dopamine while they consolidate their power and let the opposition neuter themselves.  Once impeachment fails, Trump wins this fall and they keep the senate, then we enter a phase where the only outcome is what Brisket describes, and it will get a lot worse before people are compelled to act and it gets better.

Edited January 16, 2020 by Goredho

[henrygandorf 29199]

25 minutes ago, Pescado_Rojo said:

okay, but if you're late to the ledge party you get stuck sitting on the pointy gargoyle covered in pigeon shit. 

i just need a dark corner, a couple bottles of blantons, 3-4 tall scooper-vials, a mirror, and a crisp hundo from 1987. 

and if you can seat me near a few distressed blondos, I’ll let you share the blantons. 

[Biff Tannen 45766]

Just now, henrygandorf said:

i just need a dark corner, a couple bottles of blantons, 3-4 tall scooper-vials, a mirror, and a crisp hundo from 1987. 

and if you can seat me near a few distressed blondos, I’ll let you share the blantons. 

Sounds like my 7th grade Skateland experiences.

[pacman 7429]

1 hour ago, David Dennison said:

It's as simple as that. If Republicans don't break, the president can do whatever he wants. The only thing that will make Republicans break before the election is their base, and that's not happening.

Donald Trump is going to win the final round of Impeachment 2020. That's that.

If he gets re-elected and the Republicans hold the Senate, the strategy of stonewalling and obfuscation will have worked.

 

One can't possibly imagine the level of corruption Trump will bring on if he makes it past this for another four years. You would have to have some level of depravity that I don't think possible except from someone like Trump who is morally corrupt to the bone.

Edited January 16, 2020 by pacman

[DDD Dad 14374]

52 minutes ago, deech said:

I was in trial the last two days.  Getting caught up.  I mean let's openly talk about tracking a US Ambassador for a potential assassination and a co-conspirator in the Ukraine mess coming clean and implicating the AG and the VP.  

R's are like it's just your normal Thursday.

That's all fine but show me some evidence of wrongdoing /zavala

[Brisketexan 105574]

11 minutes ago, Goredho said:

 

You are both right.  In the short term nothing happens.  The majority of Americans aren’t aware, those that are aware are concerned but have yet to feel effects their daily life.  The GOP is using the economy and tax cuts as dopamine while they consolidate their power and let the opposition neuter themselves.  Once impeachment fails, Trump wins this fall and they keep the senate, then we enter a phase where the only outcome is what Brisket describes, and it will get a lot worse before people are compelled to act and it gets better.

You get it.  That's exactly how this unfolds.

Hell, here's a simple, horrifying picture: we've seen how little regard Trump and his cult have for the rule of law now.  Re-election will be a public endorsement that what they're doing is just fine, and indeed there are no consequences.  Imagine how unfettered they'll be THEN.

[Jive Turkey 12723]

4 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

Your snapshot is of where we are.  Mine is of our ultimate destination.  Arguing that the house hasn't burned down yet, there's not even a visible fire, is not a rebuttal to "we built a fucking house out of balsa wood soaked in gasoline, surrounded it with dry brush, and turned loose a herd of toddlers with lighters outside."  That ends in fire.

The GOP will not let go of power.  They will certainly not let go of it quietly -- they have too much to lose.  They are all-in on their criminal syndicate, and once you're in, you don't get out.

all i can think about is the scene in The Untouchables where Jimmy Malone tells Eliot Ness how to take out Capone.  i feel like this is where we are.  Brisket thinks things will (and must) go the Chicago way to get Trump.  others want to go the Eliot Ness way, but only with any legal means at their disposal.

 

 

Edited January 16, 2020 by Jive Turkey

[DDD Dad 14374]

Good thing you closed a few of those tabs.