Elizabeth Warren 2020

[UpperWestside 6190]

Anytime anyone says out country is devoid of leadership and it's a #bothsides issue, I can point to Senator Warren, Senator Sanders, Congresswoman Cortez, Congresswoman Omar, Congressman Lieu and many others, and say unequivocally that it is not. We have people in Washington who actually care about this country and the people who reside in it. I am so glad Warren is pushing so hard behind the scenes to not just let this go back to business as usual. 

Edited December 31, 2020 by UpperWestside

[RomaVicta 30028]

The women of the Dem Party are knocking me out. Warren was my favored candidate. I have no idea if should would have won. AOC kills me, too. Then throw in Katie Porter and I'm all aswoon. 

My advocacy for banning white men for at least a decade from leadership position in government still looks like a winner to me. I love these voices. I love their common sense. I admire their unwavering assault on the evils of our systems.

[DDD Dad 14351]

Anytime anyone says out country is devoid of leadership and it's a #bothsides issue, I can point to Senator Warren, Senator Sanders, Congresswoman Cortez, Congresswoman Omar, Congressman Lieu and many others, and say unequivocally that it is not. We have people in Washington who actually care about this country and the people who reside in it. I am so glad Warren is pushing so hard behind the scenes to not just let this go back to business as usual. 

Less Pelosi and Schumer. More Warren, AOC, Lieu, Coons, Omar, etc.

Dems need to stop using tenure as the basis for leadership.

[BrickHorn 18287]

15 hours ago, RomaVicta said:

The women of the Dem Party are knocking me out. Warren was my favored candidate. I have no idea if should would have won. AOC kills me, too. Then throw in Katie Porter and I'm all aswoon. 

My advocacy for banning white men for at least a decade from leadership position in government still looks like a winner to me. I love these voices. I love their common sense. I admire their unwavering assault on the evils of our systems.

You left out Stacey Abrams.

[atomheartbevo 89810]

28 minutes ago, BrickHorn said:

You left out Stacey Abrams.

I’m not a Democrat, but I’d like her to be running the DNC.   She’d be a great foil to the Republicans.  

[Underdog 28776]

16 hours ago, RomaVicta said:

The women of the Dem Party are knocking me out. Warren was my favored candidate. I have no idea if should would have won. AOC kills me, too. Then throw in Katie Porter and I'm all aswoon. 

My advocacy for banning white men for at least a decade from leadership position in government still looks like a winner to me. I love these voices. I love their common sense. I admire their unwavering assault on the evils of our systems.

Compare them to their counterparts, Gym, Gaetz, Hawley, Nunes,  Cotton, Loeffler, McSally and it's not even close.  

[RomaVicta 30028]

1 minute ago, Underdog said:

Compare them to their counterparts, Gym, Gaetz, Hawley, Nunes,  Cotton, Loeffler, McSally and it's not even close.  

True. For all of its weakness and its own corruption by a money-based system, the Dems offer the only home for an idealist, crusader, reformer, or, frankly, person of decent intention.

The GOP has a few decent holdovers, I suppose, but even they are slave to their party's devotion to power and greed above all else. They went from the honest presentation of values by Barry Goldwater to smiling figure head of Ronald Reagan whose protective shadow allowed the flourishing of the vile organism Goldwater would have killed with the heel of his boot.

I've never been a Republican, but I'd like some semblance of actual conservative values to be represented in government. The GOP allows no room for that.

 

 

[Biff Tannen 45745]

On 1/1/2021 at 12:24 PM, Underdog said:

Compare them to their counterparts, Gym, Gaetz, Hawley, Nunes,  Cotton, Loeffler, McSally and it's not even close.  

Unfortunately, for a fuck ton of people these goons are exactly what they want. 

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

Putting this in the 2020 thread because Elizabeth Warren is bringing 2020 MAD energy into the new year:

 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

Still going for the policy: Wealth Tax bitches.

 

[Anastasis 23487]

She wants to break up HEB and other grocery chains with market dominance because reasons.  

 

 

Edited January 11, 2022 by Anastasis

[YChang 3462]

Not an economist or even read the Economist much recently…. I do think it’s legit at least theoretically that a small concentration of businesses can be harmful to consumers and is a factor leading to high prices. But in her example of grocery stores. I would like to know how much exactly though? Think there was an article in the Times yesterday mentioning this. Cause Warren and this administration seems to want to tackle high-prices in this manner, versus general relief/solution to supply chain issues. 

[Underdog 28776]

Good thing HEB is rarely open. 

[Willfully Horn 8050]

14 minutes ago, Underdog said:

Good thing HEB is rarely open. 

And that it is not a giant. It is a Giant of Texas, where it also competes with many players.

[TwiceHorn 31539]

55 minutes ago, YChang said:

Not an economist or even read the Economist much recently…. I do think it’s legit at least theoretically that a small concentration of businesses can be harmful to consumers and is a factor leading to high prices. But in her example of grocery stores. I would like to know how much exactly though? Think there was an article in the Times yesterday mentioning this. Cause Warren and this administration seems to want to tackle high-prices in this manner, versus general relief/solution to supply chain issues. 

Well, exactly what the antitrust laws address (competition?  consumer prices?) has been a bit of a muddle.

But I think most would agree that the ability to unilaterally set prices (monopoly), or an agreement to set prices (cartel), is economically undesirable.

It is possible that current aberrant market condition are exposing  heretofore unknown or ignored monopolistic or cartel pricing behavior.

On the one hand, when Liz speaks of matters legal and business, I kind of expect her to know of what she speaks.  On the other hand, her campaign showed that she wasn't above a pretty blatant pander, either.

[wildcat09 29410]

This is a square peg, round hole thing. Antitrust is great and its judicial "reform" by radical law and economics Chicago school dipshits, and its subsequent abandonment as a policy tool, have been enormously harmful to Americans. But blaming it for current inflation isn't really great. For one, it may be accurate to say that current consolidation is partly responsible for increased prices, but it's very hard to quantify and it's probably much less responsible than covid supply chain disruptions and the simple inability for suppliers (and transport logistics) to keep up with massively increased demand for certain goods.

More importantly though, antitrust should not be promoted primarily as a consumer protection tool. Hell, modern economics didn't even exist when the Sherman Antitrust Act was first passed and certainly not the modern concepts of consumer welfare that have subsequently been rammed into the legal framework of antitrust. It was first and foremost about ensuring competition in all industries, because its proponents recognized how closely tied economic and political power were and how politically dangerous it would be to permit too much economic power to become concentrated in just a few hands. Benefits to prices for consumers were very much of secondary importance.  Unfortunately, Robert Bork and a bunch of Chicago school dipshits that became legal academics and judges effectively turned antitrust law on its head, so that any merger that could be argued would temporarily reduce consumer prices was good. This was a radical change in antitrust law that was completely imposed by courts and antithetical to the purpose of the Act. Most mergers reduce prices, at least temporarily. It's only over the long term that consolidation increases prices, once all competition has been eliminated.

I think Warren is trying to play a bit of a game here and use public anger to further a worthy policy goal. However, in doing so she's validating the Chicago school argument about what antitrust is for, which I think is a big mistake.

Edited January 13, 2022 by wildcat09

[Orale 1087]

1 hour ago, Anastasis said:

She wants to break up HEB and other grocery chains with market dominance because reasons.  

https://www.foodindustry.com/articles/top-10-grocers-in-the-united-states-2019/

Per this link, HEB is 6th in the U.S. in sales at $22 billion versus $228b and $121b for Wal-Mart and Kroeger. I don't have a position on her idea, but I question whether HEB would fall within the companies she takes issue with. But maybe so.

[Biff Tannen 45745]

1 minute ago, Orale said:

https://www.foodindustry.com/articles/top-10-grocers-in-the-united-states-2019/

Per this link, HEB is 6th in the U.S. in sales at $22 billion versus $228b and $121b for Wal-Mart and Kroeger. I don't have a position on her idea, but I question whether HEB would fall within the companies she takes issue with. But maybe so.

If so, she's clearly never been to HEB.

[Anastasis 23487]

2 minutes ago, Orale said:

https://www.foodindustry.com/articles/top-10-grocers-in-the-united-states-2019/

Per this link, HEB is 6th in the U.S. in sales at $22 billion versus $228b and $121b for Wal-Mart and Kroeger. I don't have a position on her idea, but I question whether HEB would fall within the companies she takes issue with. But maybe so.

What is HEB's market share in Texas?  What is Krogers in the various regions they serve?

[TwiceHorn 31539]

2 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

This is a square peg, round hole thing. Antitrust is great and its judicial "reform" by radical law and economics Chicago school dipshits, and it subsequent abandonment as a policy tool, have been enormously harmful to Americans. But blaming it for current inflation isn't really great. For one, it may be accurate to say that current consolidation is partly responsible for increased prices, but it's very hard to quantify and it's probably much less responsible than covid supply chain disruptions and the simple inability for suppliers (and transport logistics) to keep up with massively increased demand for certain goods.

More importantly though, antitrust should not be promoted primarily as a consumer protection tool. Hell, modern economics didn't even exist when the Sherman Antitrust Act was first passed and certainly not the modern concepts of consumer welfare that have subsequently been rammed into the legal framework of antitrust. It was first and foremost about ensuring competition in all industries, because its proponents recognized how closely tied economic and political power were and how politically dangerous it would be to permit too much economic power to become concentrated in just a few hands. Benefits to prices for consumers were very much of secondary importance.  Unfortunately, Robert Bork and a bunch of Chicago school dipshits that became legal academics and judges effectively turned antitrust law on its head, so that any merger that could be argued would temporarily reduce consumer prices was good. This was a radical change in antitrust law that was completely imposed by courts and antithetical to the purpose of the Act. Most mergers reduce prices, at least temporarily. It's only over the long term that consolidation increases prices, once all competition has been eliminated.

I think Warren is trying to play a bit of a game here and use public anger to further a worthy policy goal. However, in doing so she's validating the Chicago school argument about what antitrust is for, which I think is a big mistake.

I would argue that because modern economics didn't exist, the goals and purposes of the Sherman and Clayton Acts were vague and virtually unknowable.

Granted, they wanted to bust up Standard Oil and others, but the basis for doing so was a bit rudderless.

What is a monopoly and what is monopolization without "modern economics"?

And, while Bork and others had recent effect on some aspects of antitrust law, it has been eroding for virtually its entire existence, again because it didn't have a real sound basis.

[Anastasis 23487]

The data cited in the video clip is absolute profit, not margin.  

Sales increased in 2020 and 2021 as people shifted their buying habits and had to pull back from eating out. 

Online ordering, pick up and delivery took off. Grocers started playing with different products and services. 

Of course their profits were impacted, and no doubt that they saw some increases in margin as well.

If there are cases of price fixing or gouging or collusion, fucking drop the hammer on them.  But Warren citing some 3Q2021 vs. 3Q2019 profit amount in dollars and thinking that she is making a compelling point is dumb.  She is smarter than that, or so I thought.  

[YChang 3462]

49 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

 But Warren citing some 3Q2021 vs. 3Q2019 profit amount in dollars and thinking that she is making a compelling point is dumb.  She is smarter than that, or so I thought.  

 

I think she is. But as Twice and Wildcat mentioned, she's not above trying to tap into populist sentiment to advance her overall objective. 

[Willfully Horn 8050]

1 hour ago, Anastasis said:

What is HEB's market share in Texas?  What is Krogers in the various regions they serve?

While HEB dominates the market in areas, like its 60% share in South Texas, its share in Austin is less than a fifth. Kroger, OTOH, has a 16% share in company overall.

https://csimarket.com/stocks/compet_glance.php?code=KR

Further, Kroger's revenue is around 121.1 billion dollars, whereas the revenue for H-E-B is 31 billion dollars.

[Anastasis 23487]

2 minutes ago, Willfully Horn said:

While HEB dominates the market in areas, like its 60% share in South Texas, its share in Austin is less than a fifth. Kroger, OTOH, has a 16% share in company overall.

https://csimarket.com/stocks/compet_glance.php?code=KR

Further, Kroger's revenue is around 121.1 billion dollars, whereas the revenue for H-E-B is 31 billion dollars.

She should have used Walmart with a nationwide presence to drive her point. HEB only has stores only in Texas and cover 50% of that market, 2.5% nationwide. There is zero doubt that when talking about a grocery store chain that dominates the industry in their market, HEB fits the bill. 

 

[Anastasis 23487]

God, I feel sorry for people that have no other option but Kroger or Wal-Mart. 

[Willfully Horn 8050]

4 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

There is zero doubt that when talking about a grocery store chain that dominates the industry in their market, HEB fits the bill. 

Zero doubt is a concept foreign to me.

[Anastasis 23487]

1 minute ago, Willfully Horn said:

Zero doubt is a concept foreign to me.

Walk into a Kroger next time you see one. 

[gmr548 16617]

55 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

What is HEB's market share in Texas?  What is Krogers in the various regions they serve?

HEB's market share is negligible in the state's largest metro area, in which roughly a quarter of the population lives. HEB has only been in the Houston market for 20 years - I imagine at this point they are the market leader but I wouldn't be surprised if Kroger or Walmart outdo them. There's certainly competition and overlap.  Overall, HEB is a fraction of the size of Kroger. The only larger grocer is Walmart. Kroger is a Fortune 50 company. At first I laughed because I thought you were being tongue in cheek by lumping HEB in with Kroger but now I see maybe you're not, it's worth noting that they're in completely different leagues when it comes to scale, particularly when looking at them from the national level.

In general, I agree that this would appear on its face to be a square peg, round hole type solution for price increases/supply chain issues that is probably meant to deflect blame from the administration/Democrats. Which is sad both because it's disingenuous and because politicians have little control over what we're experiencing now in the first place.

[Covri 6253]

14 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

God, I feel sorry for people that have no other option but Kroger or Wal-Mart. 

Kroger isn’t great but it’s still much better than Walmart. It’s slowly going the Walmart route sadly though as they continue to reduce the number of SKUs they carry.

[gmr548 16617]

6 minutes ago, Covri said:

Kroger isn’t great but it’s still much better than Walmart. It’s slowly going the Walmart route sadly though as they continue to reduce the number of SKUs they carry.

Kroger is mostly fine, but for me, where HEB beats them - meats/seafood, variety of produce (not necessarily quality - if anything Kroger has been better for me), alcohol, and ready to eat/in house items - they just lay waste to Kroger.

Edited January 11, 2022 by gmr548

[Incredulity 11683]

FYI Costco does  about 100billion in food/sundries and fresh food.  So they are a real force in groceries too.

 

From their most recent 10Q

 

[Biff Tannen 45745]

28 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

FYI Costco does  about 100billion in food/sundries and fresh food.  So they are a real force in groceries too.

 

From their most recent 10Q

 

I don't know man.  $49k doesn't seem like that much.

[Incredulity 11683]

they round up

[Anastasis 23487]

1 hour ago, gmr548 said:

HEB's market share is negligible in the state's largest metro area, in which roughly a quarter of the population lives.

Yes, we all know that DFW is a shithole. 

 

HEB controls 2.5% of the national market, despite being confined to Texas and not really covering the largest population center?  That's pretty impressive.  

 

Warren will need to really look into that.  Sounds shady. 

Edited January 12, 2022 by Anastasis

[Guest Lobo]

Good luck taking on Aldi, Liz...you know...the largest grocer on the face of the Earth!  Worked out real well last time around.  

I know she's a hero of y'all...but tell her to start with Safeway...and then to shut the fuck up.  Scale means a lot in food.

Edited January 12, 2022 by Lobo

[6th Street 6508]

This crazy old woman needs to go away.

[F250 28823]

2 hours ago, Anastasis said:

She should have used Walmart with a nationwide presence to drive her point. HEB only has stores only in Texas and cover 50% of that market, 2.5% nationwide. There is zero doubt that when talking about a grocery store chain that dominates the industry in their market, HEB fits the bill. 

 

I worked at HEB in high school and they used to hold store wide meetings after closing and everyone had to go around repricing everything so we could undercut Kroger. It was a real pain in the ass. We would get these pep talks about driving Kroger out of the San Antonio market. Our GM would say "Kroger will need to have Triple Coupon Day everyday to keep up" then cackle.

It took a few years but Kroger closed up shop and left the San Antonio market. Albertsons did the same but they weren't as big as Kroger here.

From an employee perspective, working at Kroger was superior to working at HEB. Higher pay with guaranteed raises and union membership. HEB had a "the beatings will continue until moral improves" attitude and paid shit wages.

 

[CooterBrown 18031]

I would guess that any one of top 20 supermarket chains is cheaper than 99% of small chains and independent grocers. I don’t know if I’d pick this hill to die on.

[fattyflattie 4638]

3 hours ago, F250 said:

From an employee perspective, working at Kroger was superior to working at HEB. Higher pay with guaranteed raises and union membership. HEB had a "the beatings will continue until moral improves" attitude and paid shit wages.

That’s crazy, I’ve heard the opposite. I worked at Kroger in high school and it sucked but so did all other retail options to a 16 yo. One of my engineers left our company (few companies ago) to go back to HEB as an assistant mgr, iirc. He worked there thru college and loved it. Took a scalping on pay but said they were very good to him.   

[Hornius Emeritus 12490]

4 hours ago, fattyflattie said:

That’s crazy, I’ve heard the opposite. I worked at Kroger in high school and it sucked but so did all other retail options to a 16 yo. One of my engineers left our company (few companies ago) to go back to HEB as an assistant mgr, iirc. He worked there thru college and loved it. Took a scalping on pay but said they were very good to him.   

Anecdotal, but at my HEB I see tons of folks, even cashiers, with badges that say they've worked their 8 years, 12 years etc... One of my old friends from Temple has been a meat cutter for HEB since he got out of high school 42 years ago.   I doubt they'd have that kind of retention if they were treating folks poorly.

[DigglerontheHoof 21254]

Grocery store managers are some of the most miserable sobs on earth. 

[MonkeyDoughnut 10357]

From just last month chron article, I would say would fit squarely in Warren's war path:

H-E-B's domination of Texas scares off competing grocery chain

Iowa-based grocery chain Hy-Vee is currently charting an expansion into the Southern states, however, its CEO revealed the chain will be steering clear of Texas, according to the Des Moines Register. In a statement to employees in a company video, executive Randy Edeker explained that while the company is expanding south for the first time since 2009, they'll be avoiding planting roots in the Lone Star State due to H-E-B's regional dominance. 

"They’re [H-E-B] a phenomenal competitor," Edeker said. "There are lots of weak competitors out there that we just don’t need to go poke that bear, so we won’t."
The San Antonio-based grocery giant overwhelmingly holds Texans' loyalties, and boasts 340 locations across the state. Reasonably, the "phenomenal competitor" isn't the grocery chain Hy-Vee wants to go up against. Instead, the Des Moines company will vie for customers in Kroger-dominated states like Indiana, Tennessee, Alabama, and Kentucky. 

Outside of Texas, H-E-B only has stores in Mexico, but within the state, it hardly has any major competitors. According to market research company Metro Market Studies and the San Antonio Business Journal, Walmart continues to be H-E-B's top competitor in the state.

 

[TwiceHorn 31539]

9 minutes ago, MonkeyDoughnut said:

"They’re [H-E-B] a phenomenal competitor,"

Well, that kind of dominance is completely legal.   And, absent cartel behavior or agreements in restraint of trade, a regional market hasn't been part of a proper market definition in antitrust law for 75 years, without really unusual circumstances.

[Chewy's Hairy Horn 868]

14 hours ago, Anastasis said:

God, I feel sorry for people that have no other option but Kroger or Wal-Mart. 

Makes you miss AppleTree.   

[F250 28823]

8 hours ago, fattyflattie said:

That’s crazy, I’ve heard the opposite. I worked at Kroger in high school and it sucked but so did all other retail options to a 16 yo. One of my engineers left our company (few companies ago) to go back to HEB as an assistant mgr, iirc. He worked there thru college and loved it. Took a scalping on pay but said they were very good to him.   

This was in the early 90's. HEB was paying $3.35 an hour, managers would use a stop watch to time breaks, reprimand you for not smiling enough, and just were assholes. I quit and went down the street to work at Kroger where they started off at $4.50 an hour and gave mandatory raises every 3 months. If the raise was not added to the paycheck there was a phone in the break room to call a Union rep to get it settled out. Plus you could complain about managers who tended to leave you alone to avoid complaints to the Union. The managers at HEB were the opposite.

For a teenager, Kroger was the better work environment.

 

 

[Guest Lobo]

What a surprise, Elizabeth Warren goes after Wal-Mart & Kroger, but not Safeway.  Why is one of those Big 3 a sacred cow to her?  $

[Blotto 23580]

4 minutes ago, Lobo said:

What a surprise, Elizabeth Warren goes after Wal-Mart & Kroger, but not Safeway.  Why is one of those Big 3 a sacred cow to her?  $

Isnt Safeway a brand, and Albertsons the company? And for those of us less in tune with the supermarket lobby, what point are you trying to make here? 

[TwiceHorn 31539]

10 minutes ago, Blotto said:

Isnt Safeway a brand, and Albertsons the company? And for those of us less in tune with the supermarket lobby, what point are you trying to make here? 

Yeah, Safeway is no longer a thing.  Albertsons now owns Randalls, Tom Thumb, and I think they're still Safeway in Cali.

[Guest Lobo]

Yeah, I guess full name was Albertson's-Safeway, but now just Albertson's Companies.  And under Safeway, in Texas anyway, there's Randall's, Tom Thumb, United, et. al.  

My only point is "Big Grocery" is a curious crusade, even for her.  If it's their fault food costs more and not inflation, supply chain issues, pandemic-influenced scarcity, etc.---then I'm all ears.  Part of the reason margins on groceries have been so thin for so many decades is because it's the one thing the populace won't stand for---spikes in food prices and empty shelves.  Doesn't mean they're still not making healthy profits.  As with most things in our economy, this is a more complex issue than just evil CEO's taking bonus money.  Covid-19 and inflation are causing havoc all throughout the economy, but I suppose grocery bills and gas pumps are easy places to start, even if she's accepted money from some of them in the past.  As I said though, if this is really the linchpin, then I'm all for more transparency.

Prices are up even at Aldi, which is the by far the 'cheapest' of the Big 10 grocers in the U.S.  Our trucks are getting everything there on time, as usual.  We just have less shit to haul because their own internal supply chain that they share with Trader Joe's is all fucked up.  And as such, even Aldi has had to bump up prices on a few items that are harder to procure.  But of course, unlike the big traded supermarkets, what exactly they're making on all this is a complete unknown.  We've been working with them for 25 years and I know less and less about them as time goes on.

Anyhow, if this is an attempt by her to get her name out there again...it's working.  I don't think she's Class 3 though, so not up in 2022.  But kudos to shining a light on another thing wrong with our economy right now that nobody wants to discuss

Edited January 12, 2022 by Lobo

[F250 28823]

3 hours ago, Hornius Emeritus said:

Anecdotal, but at my HEB I see tons of folks, even cashiers, with badges that say they've worked their 8 years, 12 years etc... One of my old friends from Temple has been a meat cutter for HEB since he got out of high school 42 years ago.   I doubt they'd have that kind of retention if they were treating folks poorly.

Those people tend to be at most stores. I have a cousin that is a HEB lifer and her husband too. A friend works at HEB HQ and loves it, if you buy into the culture you will not leave. 

My ex-wifes family has a number of Kroger lifers back in Kentucky. The thing that really stood out to me while visiting her family was the comfortable middle class lifestyle they had. These were people that would be living a lower lifestyle in Texas had they been HEB lifers but because they were Union lifers they lived a pretty comfortable lifestyle. Kind of bizarre to see the contrast.