Elizabeth Warren 2020

[Nivek 16945]

17 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Well, exactly what the antitrust laws address (competition?  consumer prices?) has been a bit of a muddle.

But I think most would agree that the ability to unilaterally set prices (monopoly), or an agreement to set prices (cartel), is economically undesirable.

It is possible that current aberrant market condition are exposing  heretofore unknown or ignored monopolistic or cartel pricing behavior.

On the one hand, when Liz speaks of matters legal and business, I kind of expect her to know of what she speaks.  On the other hand, her campaign showed that she wasn't above a pretty blatant pander, either.

This is going on everywhere and it is ignored.  it is why Apple phones are the same price everywhere, and Samsung TVs are the same price everywhere.   Shit one of the products I get for my kids ranges from $9.99 to $11.99 or $13.99 for the same product.  To me it seems like the manufacturer is just playing around to see what we are willing pay for it.  

[Guest Lobo]

Yeah, I think it's more cartel pricing than monopoly practices.  Either way, I think another reason "Big Grocery" (why the fuck are we calling it that btw when the name is already there "Super Markets" or we can compromise with "Super Grocery?) got overlooked for so long is a reason I alluded to in a previous post.  The compromise for such razor thin margins to keep the masses well fed on a budget was basically they were left to their own devices when it came to regional competition, price setting, real estate plays, etc.  Other than food safety laws, the federal government basically didn't give a shit---even when it came to interstate commerce as the M&A activity in grocery exploded in the 1990s.  Charge all you want for cosmetics, home goods, alcohol, and pharmacy---but keep the shit in the middle and back of the store around 3% margins.  I mean yeah, it's driven partially by competition.  I can say that because I have 10 grocery stores within a 10 minute drive for me.  For a lot of Americans, there's 1...maybe 2 grocery stores within a 30-minute drive.  

Cartel pricing in so many industries is having its veil pulled back and I'm all for that.  Next up, Realtors! 6%?  Fuck you.  Oh because you've always done it that way?  Mmmkay.

[Incredulity 11675]

28 minutes ago, Nivek said:

This is going on everywhere and it is ignored.  it is why Apple phones are the same price everywhere, and Samsung TVs are the same price everywhere.   Shit one of the products I get for my kids ranges from $9.99 to $11.99 or $13.99 for the same product.  To me it seems like the manufacturer is just playing around to see what we are willing pay for it.  

it's much more likely retailer margin making that difference than manufacturer price differences.

[TwiceHorn 31497]

37 minutes ago, Nivek said:

This is going on everywhere and it is ignored.  it is why Apple phones are the same price everywhere, and Samsung TVs are the same price everywhere.   Shit one of the products I get for my kids ranges from $9.99 to $11.99 or $13.99 for the same product.  To me it seems like the manufacturer is just playing around to see what we are willing pay for it.  

Resale Price Maintenance (enforced MSRP) is one of those areas where "Borkian" forces prevailed to make that conduct legal-ish.

[Guest Lobo]

^
Good points last few posts.  

Also, another huge factor in pricing variance is the real estate in which you are buying it.  I can accept that a load of bread may cost a nickel more at the MILF HEB in the heart of a very crowded and premium priced Westlake Market than it does on Brodie where HEB sits on dozens of acres all by itself.  Because their overhead is just more there.  The product is the same, the guy stocking the bread and the woman ringing it up make the same wage at both stores, but the price per square foot is passed on to me. 

A new iPhone probably costs more at the Apple Store in midtown Manhattan than at the shady T-Mobile store in South Austin where I bought my last one.  Same product, same condescending $13/hour hipster trying to upsell me on a new charger.   

People forget how much real estate varies for a franchise or chain from location to location.  Yeah, most grocery stores (within the same bran) look and feel about the same on the inside from one chain location to another (take the Randall's in West Lake Hills versus the one just a few miles away on Ben White).  But the outside and location vary wildly.  It's tricky to try and price everything on a blended level across all areas of the same state, but most try---especially HEB.  

Car dealers are an excellent example of this.  They order 300 cars to populate a 10-acre lot plus a $5mm parking garage behind the service department filled with another 100.  All that debt service on those orders and construction is passed on to you---the buyer.  I mean, I get it...keep a couple of each model around for test drives but otherwise---I don't care if you have "The Largest Inventory of Fords in Texas!"  I just need the one SUV.  And all that land, all that triple net, all of that is passed on to me.  Particularly those dealerships that are more in town and not out on the frontage road.  

Banks are another example of this.  "Well, we could pay you another 25bps on your account or we could charge you 25bps less on your loan...but you see we have this 4000 square foot location in the heart of downtown to pay for.  Plus with this much space, we need some people inside of it to look busy so we hired 5 IRA specialists just hoping you'll accidentally walk in one day and open an investment account.  All that costs money so we pass that cost on to you...the depositor/borrower!"  If you walked into a bank today with a business idea that will cost $30/foot but the physical store itself will only generate $20/foot...they wouldn't loan you them money.  But that's precisely their business model.  Big, flashy, expensive real estate so you'll remember who they are next time you need a bank.  Meanwhile 80% of their business is happening at ATM locations that cost pennies on the dollar and on mobile devices.  Are they passing those savings on to you, the consumer in the form of better account rates and lower lending fees?  Absolutely fucking NOT.  That's a cartel to topple.  Not the banks themselves, we need safe places to keep money and borrow more of it.  But their real estate partners.  It's a fucking crime.  

Edited January 12, 2022 by Lobo

[Nivek 16945]

25 minutes ago, Lobo said:

Banks are another example of this.  "Well, we could pay you another 25bps on your account or we could charge you 25bps less on your loan...but you see we have this 4000 square foot location in the heart of downtown to pay for.  Plus with this much space, we need some people inside of it to look busy so we hired 5 IRA specialists just hoping you'll accidentally walk in one day and open an investment account.  All that costs money so we pass that cost on to you...the depositor/borrower!"  If you walked into a bank today with a business idea that will cost $30/foot but the physical store itself will only generate $20/foot...they wouldn't loan you them money.  But that's precisely their business model.  

That is not their business model.  Their business model is to borrow money from the government at <1% interest rate, and then lend it back to the government at 4%.  It is not like they actually took possession of the money via trucks and then shipped it back, so the overhead for such a transaction is negligible.  Or pay person A <1% interest for holding their money and then charge another 5% interest for borrowing person A's money.   

[Guest Lobo]

Poor word choice on my part.  I realize it's not their monetary business model.  But paying lots of money for very expensive real estate  for their own use/misuse is very much a part of their balance sheet.  

Edited January 12, 2022 by Lobo

[Incredulity 11675]

Also, the price differences on a single product mentioned above is an indication of a competitive retail environment.  The retailer selling the item for $9.99 is footballing the item to get you in the store in the hopes, believe, or statistical fact that they will make up the margin by selling you 4 or 5 other items.

[Covri 6249]

 

Maybe this is why she’s going after big grocery.

 

I worked at Albertsons, Randall’s (flagship), and H‑E‑B in the mid to late 90s in high school in Austin and they all had their ups and downs.  Store managers and customers had more to do with it than corporate policies.

 

Hy-Vee wanting to expand and acknowledging avoiding TEXAS is interesting. They were the lower value/cost grocery for a number of years in Des Moines,IA to Dahls before they eventually outlasted them.  I hear stories in my current business about how H‑E‑B and Publix tend to know each others business more than you’d expect and thought is they may share info from time to time more as equals pushing back against Walmart than anything, but also that they don’t plan to encroach on each other’s territory.

[Incredulity 11675]

I'll take surveys and published reports from Jacobin Magazine with a grain of salt.

[Guest Lobo]

I never really read that publication.  I read Mother Jones, the Atlantic, and every now and again the New Republic.  Not because I'm a card-carrying member of the Democratic Party (I am far from it).  But because I staunchly believe you have zero fucking entitlement to your idiotic opinion unless you're at least making an earnest attempt to read all sides (my usual gamut is Mother Jones---NY Times---Reason---National Review) as best you can on a monthly basis.  Nobody has time to do this on a weekly or daily basis, but I think monthly basis is a fair goal.  

But yeah, Jacobin Magazine on the Supermarket non-union trade?  Meh.  I'll take it with the grain of salt I can't find on my grocer's shelves because of "Big NaCl"  the fuckers! 

[F250 28784]

2 hours ago, Covri said:

 

Maybe this is why she’s going after big grocery.

 

I worked at Albertsons, Randall’s (flagship), and H‑E‑B in the mid to late 90s in high school in Austin and they all had their ups and downs.  Store managers and customers had more to do with it than corporate policies.

 

Hy-Vee wanting to expand and acknowledging avoiding TEXAS is interesting. They were the lower value/cost grocery for a number of years in Des Moines,IA to Dahls before they eventually outlasted them.  I hear stories in my current business about how H‑E‑B and Publix tend to know each others business more than you’d expect and thought is they may share info from time to time more as equals pushing back against Walmart than anything, but also that they don’t plan to encroach on each other’s territory.

Strike started today.

 

[elfenix 34318]

i may have missed it but where did warren mention HEB?

[wildcat09 29355]

Hah, did Ana seriously take advantage of the fact that nobody is watching a video at work to misrepresent what she said?

[Guest Lobo]

14 minutes ago, elfenix said:

i may have missed it but where did warren mention HEB?

She was gonna mention it, but they weren't open so she went after another chain instead.  Typical. 

[Anastasis 23475]

23 minutes ago, elfenix said:

i may have missed it but where did warren mention HEB?

She used Kroger as her soecific example. Given HEB's market dominance in the Texas region, I think it's a more relevant frame of reference for discussion on this board and see no reason why they would be exempted from scrutiny under her logic. 

[Anastasis 23475]

25 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Hah, did Ana seriously take advantage of the fact that nobody is watching a video at work to misrepresent what she said?

Uh, she talked about consolidation of the grocery story market into a handful of chains, using Kroger profit numbers to drive her point as to the outcome of such consolidation. I don't think that using HEB as the relevant example to a board of posters located largely in Texas is misrepresenting anything.  

[ftf82 485]

6 hours ago, Lobo said:

Poor word choice on my part.  I realize it's not their monetary business model.  But paying lots of money for very expensive real estate  for their own use/misuse is very much a part of their balance sheet.  

Retail branches are loss leaders for bank's core business and in effect roadside advertising. And they're not the only ones who purchase primo locations (fee or lease) in part of marketing reasons. Look no farther than the king of all branding companies located at Barton Springs and South Congress. 

[Guest Lobo]

When grandstanding in D.C., you also don't frequently pick on private companies.  You can pick on private individuals, private investors, et. al.  But because of financial reporting and vilification opportunities, there's little reason to bring anyone into the discussion other than massive, publicly-traded corporations where everything from stockboy wages to golden parachutes for C-level folks to debt service to civil suits is all open, available, and totally fair game.  If I was going after "Big Oil"...I wouldn't open with Hilcorp or Fieldwood.  I'd open with the household names people know with lots and lots of public data. 

[mchookem 16336]

Safeway is terrible. they are in Denver and our trip there last month made me dread no longer having HEB when we move there 😒 as someone mentioned, i will really miss HEB prepared foods stuff, they are so good at that game!

i've never been to a King Sooper which is their other big one, maybe it's better than Safeway.

they do have Trader Joe's, which i love except for produce...but they have WF and Sprouts which generally have really good produce.

*sigh* who knew the grocery store would be the thing i'd miss most about Texas lol

 

Edited January 13, 2022 by mchookem

[wildcat09 29355]

1 hour ago, Anastasis said:

Uh, she talked about consolidation of the grocery story market into a handful of chains, using Kroger profit numbers to drive her point as to the outcome of such consolidation. I don't think that using HEB as the relevant example to a board of posters located largely in Texas is misrepresenting anything.  

A simple "yes" would've been easier.

[Bullneck 19174]

22 hours ago, 6th Street said:

This crazy old woman needs to go away.

Nope, she's a national treasure.  Would be great if we had 100 senators just like her.

[Anastasis 23475]

13 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

A simple "yes" would've been easier.

Nobody here is stupid enough to fall for your weak deflection that her comments were only relevant to Kroger. 

[6th Street 6420]

She's dumb as fuck and a disgrace to the Democratic Party

[TwiceHorn 31497]

7 minutes ago, 6th Street said:

She's dumb as fuck and a disgrace to the Democratic Party

She's really not.  She's probably in the top 10% at least, of intelligent and accomplished congresscritters.  Now, whether she is very good at partisan politics is a different question.

Edited January 13, 2022 by TwiceHorn

[F250 28784]

Warren is not suited for populism.

 

[TwiceHorn 31497]

11 minutes ago, F250 said:

Warren is not suited for populism.

 

Exactly.  She has trouble dumbing down her message and ideas for the morons.

[DalTxHornFan 3106]

7 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Exactly.  She has trouble dumbing down her message and ideas for the morons.

That might explain why she dropped out of the 2020 Democratic Presidential Primary in March, 2020 -- two days after Super Tuesday, no?

[CooterBrown 18015]

This was in the early 90's. HEB was paying $3.35 an hour, managers would use a stop watch to time breaks, reprimand you for not smiling enough, and just were assholes. I quit and went down the street to work at Kroger where they started off at $4.50 an hour and gave mandatory raises every 3 months. If the raise was not added to the paycheck there was a phone in the break room to call a Union rep to get it settled out. Plus you could complain about managers who tended to leave you alone to avoid complaints to the Union. The managers at HEB were the opposite.
For a teenager, Kroger was the better work environment.
 
 

Weird. My experience was different. I was a cashier at H‑E‑B for a couple of years in college. IIRC 92-93. I think I started at like $7-8 hour.

They paid unit directors a lot but they asked a lot in return. They were making $120K back in like ‘92. However, first you were a department manager and then a store manager before you moved up to unit director. Those lower positions were paid well also. The catch was your weekly schedule was 6 12-hour days. The management team took turns with the two shifts, 8am-8pm or 10am-10pm. A Monday day off was followed by a Tuesday off, etc. you got 2 weeks of vacation, 1 week of sick time, and 3 holidays. It was an absolutely brutal schedule. On top of it, you only stayed at one store for 2-4 years before they moved you to another store. They were al Type A go getters so they were annoying. The assistant service managers who ran the front (cashiers and carry outs) were usually college students that they were testing out for management training when they graduated. They were generally okay.

When I first started there were quarterly profit sharing bonuses for everyone. As a new cashier, I’d get $1+ for every hour worked so it was a couple hundred bucks every quarter. That went away though.

It wasn’t bad for a part time college job back then. Pay was decent. It was easy to work the hours you wanted, when you wanted. Got plenty of cheap beer since if a beer broke, we’d wrap up random spare beers into a six pack and sell them for $2. Used to hide a dozen of those packs in a cooler for when I got off work so I could buy them. Banged more than a few coworkers after giving them rides back to campus. All in all, not a bad time.

[HornOnTheBayou 8931]

3 hours ago, Anastasis said:

Uh, she talked about consolidation of the grocery story market into a handful of chains, using Kroger profit numbers to drive her point as to the outcome of such consolidation. I don't think that using HEB as the relevant example to a board of posters located largely in Texas is misrepresenting anything.  

I was walking downtown today and saw Anastasis* paying a homeless man $20 to pee on him.

 

*OK, to be fair, it wasn't actually Anastasis. I was just using him as a relevant example as someone who could do that, since posters on this board are familiar with him.

[Anastasis 23475]

48 minutes ago, HornOnTheBayou said:

I was walking downtown today and saw Anastasis* paying a homeless man $20 to pee on him.

 

*OK, to be fair, it wasn't actually Anastasis. I was just using him as a relevant example as someone who could do that, since posters on this board are familiar with him.

 

I guess another self identifying deflector that thinks that her comments don't relate to the dominant grocery store chain in this state. 

[F250 28784]

1 hour ago, CooterBrown said:

 

Weird. My experience was different. I was a cashier at H‑E‑B for a couple of years in college. IIRC 92-93. I think I started at like $7-8 hour.

They paid unit directors a lot but they asked a lot in return. They were making $120K back in like ‘92. However, first you were a department manager and then a store manager before you moved up to unit director. Those lower positions were paid well also. The catch was your weekly schedule was 6 12-hour days. The management team took turns with the two shifts, 8am-8pm or 10am-10pm. A Monday day off was followed by a Tuesday off, etc. you got 2 weeks of vacation, 1 week of sick time, and 3 holidays. It was an absolutely brutal schedule. On top of it, you only stayed at one store for 2-4 years before they moved you to another store. They were al Type A go getters so they were annoying. The assistant service managers who ran the front (cashiers and carry outs) were usually college students that they were testing out for management training when they graduated. They were generally okay.

When I first started there were quarterly profit sharing bonuses for everyone. As a new cashier, I’d get $1+ for every hour worked so it was a couple hundred bucks every quarter. That went away though.

It wasn’t bad for a part time college job back then. Pay was decent. It was easy to work the hours you wanted, when you wanted. Got plenty of cheap beer since if a beer broke, we’d wrap up random spare beers into a six pack and sell them for $2. Used to hide a dozen of those packs in a cooler for when I got off work so I could buy them. Banged more than a few coworkers after giving them rides back to campus. All in all, not a bad time.

Starting out as a cashier at 7 to 8 dollars an hour in 1992? Are you remembering that right? That was when I was a cashier and the only people making that were the older people that had been with the company for years. Shit, they were starting people out at $12 an hour when my kid worked there a few years ago.

 

 

Edited January 13, 2022 by F250

[F250 28784]

1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

Exactly.  She has trouble dumbing down her message and ideas for the morons.

She is a policy wonk not a sales person.

Trump was a shameless moron but he successfully marketed "China will pay the tariffs and Mexico will pay for the wall." The dude can convince people to buy into his message.

Bernie was good at staying on message and not getting drowned out in the details. Bernie would just start yelling about Wall Street and Bankers without getting caught up in explaining how policy will work.

Warren trys to play chess when everyone is playing checkers.

[Guest Lobo]

To be fair to Trump, he's only 50 years into a real estate development dynasty where he should possibly know what tariffs are simply based on how construction sources & uses budgets are laid out with foreign materials.  But anyone in the business will tell you that it usually takes 60 years to grasp those tariff concepts so give him time please.  Most of the development giants I know, particularly in ground-up, say you need at least 70 years in the business before you know how raw material tariffs can affect a budget.  

I love that most of Trump's penthouse is "the finest Italian marble" and "the best French fixtures" and "the most fantastic tapestries from Austria"...but he has zero fucking idea how tariffs work.  

Anyway, I had two friends from years ago that worked at HEB and both had their college tuition picked up completely by HEB (obviously they had to work there well before, during school, and I think even stick around for awhile after graduation...but both left there free and clear with zero debt).  That's gotta be worth something.

[fattyflattie 4639]

3 hours ago, 6th Street said:

She's dumb as fuck and a disgrace to the Democratic Party

She’s not dumb. Disgraceful can be your call. 

[TDunk 590]

On 1/11/2022 at 3:21 PM, Anastasis said:

She wants to break up HEB and other grocery chains with market dominance because reasons.  

 

 

On 1/11/2022 at 3:21 PM, Anastasis said:

She wants to break up HEB and other grocery chains with market dominance because reasons.  

 

 

Not to quote you directly, but my grandpa owned 2 grocery stores.  Kroger moved in and 1 was done because of costs.  The other one is still open only because of access.  Kroger owns King Soopers as well.  

 

 

[CooterBrown 18015]

10 hours ago, F250 said:

Starting out as a cashier at 7 to 8 dollars an hour in 1992? Are you remembering that right? That was when I was a cashier and the only people making that were the older people that had been with the company for years. Shit, they were starting people out at $12 an hour when my kid worked there a few years ago.

 

 

It was 30 years ago, maybe my memory's faulty.  Thinking about it, it probably was more like $5-6.  I generally worked 24 hours a week and took home around $100. The math works for that pay range.  

[Nivek 16945]

14 hours ago, 6th Street said:

She's dumb as fuck and a disgrace to the Democratic Party

How could people like a woman responsible for trying to end unfair business practices and predatory lending.   

[Biff Tannen 45691]

11 hours ago, F250 said:

The dude can convince people  the absolute dumbest people in the country, of which there are a fuck ton, to buy into his message.

fixed

[F250 28784]

12 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

fixed

That's how it works. Thinking otherwise leads to the ineffective politics that we see from Warren.

 

[Biff Tannen 45691]

31 minutes ago, F250 said:

That's how it works. Thinking otherwise leads to the ineffective politics that we see from Warren.

 

[TwiceHorn 31497]

11 hours ago, Lobo said:

To be fair to Trump, he's only 50 years into a real estate development dynasty where he should possibly know what tariffs are simply based on how construction sources & uses budgets are laid out with foreign materials.  But anyone in the business will tell you that it usually takes 60 years to grasp those tariff concepts so give him time please.  Most of the development giants I know, particularly in ground-up, say you need at least 70 years in the business before you know how raw material tariffs can affect a budget.  

I love that most of Trump's penthouse is "the finest Italian marble" and "the best French fixtures" and "the most fantastic tapestries from Austria"...but he has zero fucking idea how tariffs work.  

Anyway, I had two friends from years ago that worked at HEB and both had their college tuition picked up completely by HEB (obviously they had to work there well before, during school, and I think even stick around for awhile after graduation...but both left there free and clear with zero debt).  That's gotta be worth something.

Construction budgeting and sourcing don't require deep knowledge when you don't intend to pay your contractors and suppliers.  Besides, you know damn well he's not involved at that level.

[52-80 19169]

On 1/12/2022 at 3:25 PM, Lobo said:

Yeah, I guess full name was Albertson's-Safeway, but now just Albertson's Companies.  And under Safeway, in Texas anyway, there's Randall's, Tom Thumb, United, et. al.  

My only point is "Big Grocery" is a curious crusade, even for her.  If it's their fault food costs more and not inflation, supply chain issues, pandemic-influenced scarcity, etc.---then I'm all ears.  Part of the reason margins on groceries have been so thin for so many decades is because it's the one thing the populace won't stand for---spikes in food prices and empty shelves.  Doesn't mean they're still not making healthy profits.

The 'healthy' profits of the Big Grocery cartels.  LOL.

I thought Warren had some enough integrity to be above all this cheap grandstanding and pandering... guess not.  Disappointing.

 

[Guest Lobo]

Well, to be fair—/margin and profit are different.  But I’ve said exhaustively their margins are tight and it’s a strange battle for her.  Cost of groceries is driven by so much more than just price setting by executives.  Our trucks for instance.  My long winded body of posts on this thread are aligned with most of y’all.  And I have some industry insight handling dedicated fleet for aldi for two decades.  Warren gonna Warren.  

[6th Street 6420]

Look at those greedy KR bastards, squeezing out 21bps of margin expansion while the rest of America suffers!

[gmr548 16580]

*sigh* who knew the grocery store would be the thing i'd miss most about Texas lol

From a quality of life standpoint, HEB is the biggest positive Texas has going for it, and it’s not particularly close.

[gmr548 16580]

She's really not.  She's probably in the top 10% at least, of intelligent and accomplished congresscritters.  Now, whether she is very good at partisan politics is a different question.

This. She’s a bad politician. That’s a compliment, in a way.

[52-80 19169]

42 minutes ago, Lobo said:

Well, to be fair—/margin and profit are different.  But I’ve said exhaustively their margins are tight and it’s a strange battle for her.  Cost of groceries is driven by so much more than just price setting by executives.  Our trucks for instance.  My long winded body of posts on this thread are aligned with most of y’all.  And I have some industry insight handling dedicated fleet for aldi for two decades.  Warren gonna Warren.  

that's literally just profits after opex like salaries unless all the workers work for free and the building has no rent.

saying krogers earned $2B last year is a pretty sexy thing to lizzie to shout out unless maybe they needed to sell $135B of the motherfuckers which cost them to $105 just to buy.  and they still have to pay taxes on the $2B.

groceries is and has always been a paper-thin high-volume business.  i suppose if she thinks this is representative of corporate greed, the solution is to ...nationalize groceries?  i'm sure that will be awesome.

 

[52-80 19169]

*of course we know that she knows better than that, and she just wants to rile up her dumb voters... which is ...blech, whatever

[Anastasis 23475]

13 minutes ago, gmr548 said:

From a quality of life standpoint, HEB is the biggest positive Texas has going for it, and it’s not particularly close.

 

In terms of a strong differentiator, it has to be up there.