Elizabeth Warren 2020

[GRHorn 105]

13 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

The Republican propaganda machine of Fox News.

Well, that’s underwhelming. 

[Asithappens 974]

1 minute ago, gsoda3 said:

president pelosi.

The Dems currently don't have anybody who is capable of taking on Trump in 2020. 

Sorry Joe.

[Celery Man 20881]

16 minutes ago, Amobie said:

Based on these results, she wouldn't be able to claim Cherokee lineage and it wouldn't be recognized by the tribe.  Minimum is 1/16th for most tribes and Cherokee are much more strict than others.  1/1024 is just a bit outside the range.

By comparison, most Europeans have 1.8-2.6% Neanderthal DNA.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-4955128/Humans-TWICE-Neanderthal-DNA-thought.html

 

So in summary..

 

 

where are you getting this?  Cherokees use lineage not blood quantum, and of course she never applied to be added to the tribal roles or whatever the fuck.  Actually you know what, go sick.  Keep making this an issue.

[Laxtonto 11927]

Who the hell thought that releasing these results were a good idea?

Anything less than 1/16 was going to bring the flack of she inst enough the qualify for any tribe, but 1/512 or 1/1024 is just going to bring ridicule. 

Combine this with some of the other "concerns" regarding the methodology, and this was destined to be a shit show.

And why in the world did they wait to do this on a Monday? If you didnt think it was going to be anything less than a slam dunk and allows you to drag your nuts all over Trumps face it should have leaked out a Friday afternoon. The strategy in this is baffling.

Edited October 15, 2018 by Laxtonto

[udaydanceparty 33]

3 minutes ago, Celery Man said:

where are you getting this?  Cherokees use lineage not blood quantum, and of course she never applied to be added to the tribal roles or whatever the fuck.  Actually you know what, go sick.  Keep making this an issue.

She is going to get destroyed over this in the primaries.  She doubled down on a blatant lie.

[David Dennison 18646]

7 minutes ago, udaydanceparty said:

She is going to get destroyed over this in the primaries.  She doubled down on a blatant lie.

No one in the Democratic primary is going to care about this, especially now that she has proof.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

15 minutes ago, Laxtonto said:

Who the hell thought that releasing these results were a good idea?

Anything less than 1/16 was going to bring the flack of she inst enough the qualify for any tribe, but 1/512 or 1/1024 is just going to bring ridicule. 

Combine this with some of the other "concerns" regarding the methodology, and this was destined to be a shit show.

And why in the world did they wait to do this on a Monday? If you didnt think it was going to be anything less than a slam dunk and allows you to drag your nuts all over Trumps face it should have leaked out a Friday afternoon. The strategy in this is baffling.

The problem with her whole claim is there are boat loads of people with actual native blood. My wife has Cherokee lineage (3-4 generations back), I've got some back in our family tree, and we would have never in a million years trotted it out to use for any benefit.  

It was a lame ass thing to do from the get go.  It's not like she ever lived the life of a modern day Native American.  Our daughter went to school with, and was close friends with  a girl who grew up on one of the Indian reservations in our region.  They have a tough time making ends meet, and using that heritage is an insult to the folks who have actual lineage of more than a chance wood shed meeting 200 years ago.

 

Edited October 15, 2018 by Onboard 2.0

[Celery Man 20881]

trump should use specifically that wood shed meeting line

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

1 minute ago, Celery Man said:

trump should use specifically that wood shed meeting line

It's already copyrighted brah'

[horncyclist 1384]

So my wife is an 8th generation Texan. Traces back to Spanish family that came from the Canary islands. She has as much of a relation to them as Warren does to the Cherokee but no one questions my wife when she claims that lineage. Give it a fucking rest and Trump owes a million to a charity. But good luck with that.

[Amobie 58]

11 minutes ago, Celery Man said:

where are you getting this?  Cherokees use lineage not blood quantum, and of course she never applied to be added to the tribal roles or whatever the fuck.  Actually you know what, go sick.  Keep making this an issue.

She claimed that her family has native american blood originating from the Northeastern USA.  IE Delaware..  So she gets a DNA test that compares her DNA from people in Mexico, Columbia and Peru.  Based on that loose link, she claims that she was right all along when it does nothing of the sort.

Not even fellow dems are supporting her on this.

https://twitter.com/Messina2012/status/1051851241561710594

 

[Biff Tannen 45491]

6 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

No one in the Democratic primary is going to care about this, especially now that she has proof.

This.  Only the Rs give a fuck.  

[Amobie 58]

1 minute ago, horncyclist said:

So my wife is an 8th generation Texan. Traces back to Spanish family that came from the Canary islands. She has as much of a relation to them as Warren does to the Cherokee but no one questions my wife when she claims that lineage. Give it a fucking rest and Trump owes a million to a charity. But good luck with that.

Maybe he can donate 1/1024 of $1 million...

[GRHorn 105]

I’ve always questioned whether it would bother minorities, other than myself, that someone took advantage of being 1/32-1/512 of a race and used it to their benefit. Directly or indirectly.  

Do any liberal minority posters here have any thoughts on that?

Edited October 15, 2018 by GRHorn

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

Could Warren be trolling with this DNA release?

[Celery Man 20881]

should've had them track those Northeastern Native American genes

[horncyclist 1384]

Is there any evidence she used this to advance her academic career? She had a damn impressive legal academic career highlighted by significant contributions in bankruptcy. This is just the "make someone's strength into a weakness" tactic.

[Jack 51]

8 minutes ago, GRHorn said:

I’ve always questioned whether it would bother minorities, other than myself, that someone took advantage of being 1/32-1/512 of a race and used it to their benefit. Directly or indirectly.  

Do any liberal minority posters here have any thoughts on that?

The issue is not whether she has small amounts of Native American blood. It is whether she is right to claim to be an American Indian on her faculty applications based on those trace amounts.

There is nothing to stop her from doing it but it completely spits in the face of the intent of those laws. 

[Hank Kingsley 20676]

16 minutes ago, Amobie said:

She claimed that her family has native american blood originating from the Northeastern USA.  IE Delaware..  So she gets a DNA test that compares her DNA from people in Mexico, Columbia and Peru.  Based on that loose link, she claims that she was right all along when it does nothing of the sort.

Not even fellow dems are supporting her on this.

https://twitter.com/Messina2012/status/1051851241561710594

 

That twitter link doesn't argue the substance of her claim, instead he has an issue with the timing of info release. But he does have a point. 

 

 

[Fozzz 152]

3 minutes ago, Jack said:

The issue is not whether she has small amounts of Native American blood. It is whether she is right to claim to be an American Indian on her faculty applications based on those trace amounts.

There is nothing to stop her from doing it but it completely spits in the face of the intent of those laws. 

Not much of a textualist, are you.

[Laxtonto 11927]

9 minutes ago, horncyclist said:

Is there any evidence she used this to advance her academic career? She had a damn impressive legal academic career highlighted by significant contributions in bankruptcy. This is just the "make someone's strength into a weakness" tactic.

Here bankruptcy stuff is actually somewhat misleading and coming under fire as well. Her core premises that medical debt is the primary contributor to BR. The issue is that the methodology is full of holes.

Quote

Warren and her co-authors not only classified a “medical bankruptcy” as any bankruptcy that included at least $1,000 in medical debt (in her 2001 paper) or $5,000 (in her 2007 paper), their methodology was “quite explicitly designed to capture every case where medical bills, or medical loss of income, coexist with some other causal factor — but the medical issues are then always designated as causal in their discussion.”

 

So essentially lets collect BR and then any that have medical bills included over 1 or 5k and put them in a category. Then run analysis to see if that is significant. Then claim the medical bills are the cause... There is big piece missing there. Say I have medical bills and credit card debt, then regardless of the proportion those are, if I meet the minimum threshold of medical bills I claim it as being caused by medical bills. Should have determined a tipping point % as well as a minimum $$ threshold.

Interesting thing to study, methodology is shit.

Edited October 15, 2018 by Laxtonto
fat fingers

[Asithappens 974]

8 minutes ago, horncyclist said:

Is there any evidence she used this to advance her academic career? 

None that I've ever heard. 

She chose to enter a pretty technical area of the law and has done very well at it. Good for her.

[Amobie 58]

9 minutes ago, Celery Man said:

should've had them track those Northeastern Native American genes

You mean since there are no known markers?  It's almost as if you are agreeing with me that the test prove nothing and only makes her look like an idiot for publishing it. 

[Asithappens 974]

5 minutes ago, Laxtonto said:

Here bankruptcy stuff is actually somewhat misleading and coming under fire as well. Here core premises that medical depth is the primary contributor to BR. The issue is that the methodology is full of holes.

 

So essentially lets collect BR and then any that have medical bills included over 1 or 5k and put them in a category. Then run analysis to see if that is significant. Then claim the medical bills are the cause... There is big piece missing there. Say I have medical bills and credit card debt, then regardless of the proportion those are, if I meet the minimum threshold of medical bills I claim it as being caused by medical bills. Should have determined a tipping point % as well as a minimum $$ threshold.

Interesting thing to study, methodology is shit.

So you're assuming that none of the credit card debt is medical-related? Or was that addressed in the methodology? 

[Laxtonto 11927]

imgur

This is cold... but I laughed...

[horncyclist 1384]

 

So essentially lets collect BR and then any that have medical bills included over 1 or 5k and put them in a category. Then run analysis to see if that is significant. Then claim the medical bills are the cause... There is big piece missing there. Say I have medical bills and credit card debt, then regardless of the proportion those are, if I meet the minimum threshold of medical bills I claim it as being caused by medical bills. Should have determined a tipping point % as well as a minimum $$ threshold.

Interesting thing to study, methodology is shit.

You realize it would be nearly impossible to find academic work that hasn't been criticized by other academics. That's what they do. The process and iterative thinking moves us closer to answers. And that Atlantic article is from 2010.

 

[Amobie 58]

29 minutes ago, GRHorn said:

I’ve always questioned whether it would bother minorities, other than myself, that someone took advantage of being 1/32-1/512 of a race and used it to their benefit. Directly or indirectly.  

Do any liberal minority posters here have any thoughts on that?

Why don't we just ask the Cherokee?

https://thinkprogress.org/elizabeth-warren-is-not-cherokee-c1ec6c91b696/

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/mattvespa/2018/03/16/watch-cherokee-genealogist-takes-elizabeth-warrens-native-american-claims-to-th-n2461213

 

She could have tried to compare her DNA to Cherokee or just put it into one of those generic DNA databases but instead, she had a friend do it.  She's a fraud.

Edited October 15, 2018 by Amobie

[seven 1366]

Warren really brought the trolls out, and they are seething mad. Amobie is on his way to home depot to pick up a couple tiki torches at this very moment 

[Celery Man 20881]

13 minutes ago, Amobie said:

You mean since there are no known markers?  It's almost as if you are agreeing with me that the test prove nothing and only makes her look like an idiot for publishing it. 

yeah because it's fucking arbitrary and there's not enough sample/science to determine whether someone is genetically a Cherokee, which is stupid anyways since that's pretty much based on what which of your ancestors considered themselves as of 1908 or whatever the year.  Her family lore is that she had a Native American however many greats grandmother.  She didn't benefit from it.  Insomuch as such a thing can be demonstrated, it is.  2018 and the amoral trump right is has found a way to be able to talk about miscegenation and racial purity again.  What a time. 

[Laxtonto 11927]

Just now, Asithappens said:

So you're assuming that none of the credit card debt is medical-related? Or was that addressed in the methodology?  

The paper has many holes that make you wonder if it was just published due to name vs contribution. Either get it from HA or just read the link posted with the concerns.

Quote

In her (in)famous paper on medical bankruptcies in 2001, Warren and her co-authors defined anyone with $1000 worth of medical bills as having a medical bankruptcy, and used that figure to imply that rising medical bills were pushing people over the financial edge.  Now maybe they are, but you sure couldn't prove it with that metric.  I hope to hell that no lawyer (Warren is a law professor) would advise a client with no debt but $1,000 worth of medical bills to declare bankruptcy, because doing so would be malpractice*.

Quote

This paper was deeply, deeply flawed, and all in ways that suggested--as this discussion does--that rising medical bills were causing an increase in bankruptcies.  I'll try to hit the highlights:

1.  I'm pretty sure that the metric they used this time around--10% of income or $5,000 would still make Patty Barreiro's bankruptcy a "medical bankruptcy", something which has never been asserted by anyone.  The proximate cause of that bankruptcy was (according to Andrews) a lawsuit and an income crunch; the medical bills were simply added in.

2.  The response rate on their survey was only 20%.  Given the deep shame surrounding bankruptcy, you have to worry that they got an unrepresentative sample.  And how is that sample most likely to be unrepresentative?  Well, one pretty likely way is that people who went bankrupt through no fault of their own--folks who got whacked by large and unpayable medical bills or a business closure--were more likely to respond than the people with drug or alcohol problems, profound depression that left them unable to work, compulsive gambling issues, and so forth.

3.   The authors have an odd tendency to ignore what the respondents themselves say.  32% of those surveyed about their 2007 bankruptcies--not 62%--reported that "medical problem of self or spouse was reason for bankruptcy."  If anything, I would expect this to be overreported, since this is one of the few reasons for bankruptcy that does not trigger shame in our society; there should be a tendency for people to overemphasize the role that illness played in bankruptcies, which are often multifactorial and involve many different kinds of bills.

Warren, et al argue that they need to correct for the fact that someone may mortgage a home to pay for an illness, and then report the reason for their bankruptcy as "unable to pay for mortgage".  Fair enough, but if you are going to try to correct for that sort of thing, you also need to try to correct for bias in the other direction.  They only make adjustments that ratchet the results upwards. 

More troubling, when you look at the percentage of people who self report that illness played a role in their bankruptcy, it hasn't changed that much.  In the 2001 study, "illness or injury" is cited causally in just over 28% of cases.  In the 2007 study, it's 32%.  That's about a 10% increase, far less dramatic than they claim, and given how small their sample is, not particularly compelling.  This should have induced far more caution in describing the changes than they claim.

4.  Their methodology is quite explicitly designed to capture every case where medical bills, or medical loss of income, coexist with some other causal factor--but the medical issues are then always designated as causal in their discussion. 

Basically in a nut shell, concerns with classification, response rate, response bias, generalizability, overstating of implied causality and overstated contribution to the body of knowledge. Besides that it is fine.. Its well written, but as someone who reviewed (and even submitted a few to the particular journal) many articles, this one seems a bit problematic to me, but then again I am way more of a quant and research methodology guy than a story teller.

[Jack Burton 35]

These trolls made me cum 

[Amobie 58]

Just now, Celery Man said:

yeah because it's fucking arbitrary and there's not enough sample/science to determine whether someone is genetically a Cherokee, which is stupid anyways since that's pretty much based on what which of your ancestors considered themselves as of 1908 or whatever the year.  Her family lore is that she had a Native American however many greats grandmother.  She didn't benefit from it.  Insomuch as such a thing can be demonstrated, it is.  2018 and the amoral trump right is has found a way to be able to talk about miscegenation and racial purity again.  What a time. 

Then why does she keep lying about it?

Also..  According to the NYT, the average white american has more native american blood than Elizabeth Warren.  So using the Elizabeth Warren standard, the average white american is a minority.  https://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/25/science/23andme-genetic-ethnicity-study.html

 

[Amobie 58]

4 minutes ago, seven said:

Warren really brought the trolls out, and they are seething mad. Amobie is on his way to home depot to pick up a couple tiki torches at this very moment 

Mosquitoes are dead thanks to the freeze, no need.

[Celery Man 20881]

she didn't, dipshit

[Asithappens 974]

12 minutes ago, Amobie said:

Why don't we just ask the Cherokee?

 

How would they necessarily know?

They wouldn't.

[WgnBrnr 17]

9 minutes ago, Amobie said:

Why don't we just ask the Cherokee?

https://thinkprogress.org/elizabeth-warren-is-not-cherokee-c1ec6c91b696/

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/mattvespa/2018/03/16/watch-cherokee-genealogist-takes-elizabeth-warrens-native-american-claims-to-th-n2461213

 

She could have tried to compare her DNA to Cherokee or just put it into one of those generic DNA databases but instead, she had a friend do it.  She's a fraud.

Calling bullshit Amobie, she just got her results from her DNA, it's quit possible she will continue to research her N.A. heritage and figure out her linage. Your just butt hurt because your boy Donnie looks like a ass again....per usual!!!

[Horn Under a Bad Sign 20342]

1 hour ago, udaydanceparty said:

She is going to get destroyed over this in the primaries.  She doubled down on a blatant lie.

 Trump has doubled down on thousands of blatant lies. He did not get destroyed in the primaries.

Or is it your claim that Dems are more moral than Republicans and will destroy Warren over a lie when Republicans are doubling down on a proven liar?

[Laxtonto 11927]

What ever the reasoning for Warren for doing this now, Ill would let the timing issue slide because I am willing to bet it is something tied to her own Senate race.  What I cant understand is how the hell can the Boston Globe get a pass for the fact that they screwed up several times on this article and it  now has made this more of an issue by having the implied view that Warren and the "fake news" tried to overembelish the results.

This throws more mud on Warren and now the questions are going to be did they approve of the article before it went out, and if so how did you miss they screwed up the %? If you did not, are you going to still be allowing them the unfettered access that was required to do this story in the future?

 

[horncyclist 1384]

This is birtherism/long form birth certificate all over again. Fuck you, you dishonest fucks.

 

 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

 

[Amobie 58]

31 minutes ago, Celery Man said:

she didn't, dipshit

No she lied about it. She claims that her parents eloped because her mom was part Cherokee and used it as a big part of her political campaigns.  This test showed she has 50% less native american than the average american.  She doesn't have enough native american blood to be recognized as a native american and she used it to get ahead professionally.

 

https://twitter.com/willchamberlain/status/1051865429856018433

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 15, 2018 by Amobie

[babysdaddy 2718]

1 hour ago, Asithappens said:

Maybe. I hope so.

But saying it will happen doesn't mean it will happen. 

You're going to ruin Dennison's entire posting philosophy.  

[Amobie 58]

31 minutes ago, WgnBrnr said:

Calling bullshit Amobie, she just got her results from her DNA, it's quit possible she will continue to research her N.A. heritage and figure out her linage. Your just butt hurt because your boy Donnie looks like a ass again....per usual!!!

The average american has twice the amount of native american blood as she does.  The Cherokee tribe doesn't recognize her claims.

[Jack Burton 35]

Shouldn't you be ecstatic that she passed your racial purity test?

[Celery Man 20881]

10 minutes ago, Amobie said:

No she lied about it. She claims that her parents eloped because her mom was part Cherokee and used it as a big part of her political campaigns.  This test showed she has 50% less native american than the average american.  She doesn't have enough native american blood to be recognized as a native american and she used it to get ahead professionally.

 

https://twitter.com/willchamberlain/status/1051865429856018433

 

 

 

 

 

 

Is her claim that her parents eloped (and why) false?

The test doesn't show that she has 50% less "native american" than the average American, because you can't fucking measure "native American".  There's not a thing to measure.  The DNA tests are not very good for this because there is almost no sample to compare across, and even the sample that exists is fairly diverse across the small population.

Cherokee doesn't use blood quantum for membership, and she was never trying to join the tribe.  And blood quantum doesn't have anything to do with the components of your blood, it has to do with math about who fucked who leading up to you since 1934.

She didn't use it to get ahead professionally.

It's fucking stupid.  But I guess what should we expect.

Edited October 15, 2018 by Celery Man

[horncyclist 1384]

The average american has twice the amount of native american blood as she does.  The Cherokee tribe doesn't recognize her claims.

Quit lying. This is birtherism. it's a made up story to undermine a political opponent.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

 

This video she put together is pretty bad ass, campaign wise.  

It goes over her entire family history and portrays her as a common woman that had a pretty normal life through college but highlights her elite talent as a scholar and teacher. 

Edited October 15, 2018 by Hugo Stiglitz

[Judge Roybeanbag 11802]

Lulz, I knew this morning that the trump morons would blow up this thread, because the first thing I heard at 6:30am on local am radio was the state sponsored talk shows telling them to be very outraged about this.  What a bunch of mindless yahoos.

[Hank Kingsley 20676]

At this point I'm just laughing at Rs with their heads so far up Trump's ass that they consider this non-story as some sort of disqualifier.  Have you no shame?

[Asithappens 974]

4 minutes ago, horncyclist said:

10 minutes ago, Amobie said:

The average american has twice the amount of native american blood as she does.  The Cherokee tribe doesn't recognize her claims.

Quit lying. This is birtherism. it's a made up story to undermine a political opponent.

I don't really see it as birtherism. Warren created this problem by making a pretty weak claim to being an Indian. 

Obama didn't do anything like that.