The re-emergence of Nationalism

[DDD Dad 14343]

Hard to ignore the parallels across the globe over the last 10 years.  Most notably in Europe (Poland, Italy, GB (Brexit), and even France), as well as here in the USA, a pattern of deep division has set in.  How much of this has been the product of an orchestrated effort by totalitarian enemies (Russia, China), and how much of it is the simple shittiness of the human race?

This week the NY Times Daily podcast delves into the European experience.  It got me to thinking, and I didn't see a thread really addressing this larger question.

The Daily

Part 1

Part 2

Part 3

Part 4

[DDD Dad 14343]

Today's finale--Can liberal democracy survive in Europe?

I guess no one else finds this interesting or worthy of discussion?

[HenryJames 66132]

I listened to each one this week.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

On 6/13/2019 at 9:42 AM, DDD Dad said:

How much of this has been the product of an orchestrated effort by totalitarian enemies (Russia, China), and how much of it is the simple shittiness of the human race?

It’s the assholes with money and power trying to get more money and power by exploiting everyone’s shittiness and ignorance.  Unfortunately, China and Russia have decided to join in on the game that our billionaire assholes were running on us.  We have not maintained a healthy and well informed society to protect ourselves from this shit.  Mostly due to greed and apathy.

[F250 28787]

On 6/13/2019 at 9:42 AM, DDD Dad said:

Hard to ignore the parallels across the globe over the last 10 years.  Most notably in Europe (Poland, Italy, GB (Brexit), and even France), as well as here in the USA, a pattern of deep division has set in.  How much of this has been the product of an orchestrated effort by totalitarian enemies (Russia, China), and how much of it is the simple shittiness of the human race? 

It seems that the commonality with all of the nationalist movements is class tension.

People aren't assholes, they are pissed because they are experiencing economic pain and are lashing out against organizations they believe is creating their pain. The European Commission and European Central Bank are capable of making policies that have a direct impact on the economies of Europe and Britain, considering some of the decision makers are from Germany or France, you can imagine how a Brit barely getting by might view these organizations as foreign unelected technocrats. Then you have the IMF get involved in already struggling economies under the agreement with the IMF that austerity programs will be implemented. More pain on top of pain.

Imagine an international organization that is heavily influenced by China coming to assist the economy of the United States but only if the U.S. reduces Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security benefits. The sense of foreign oppression would be pretty powerful.

It makes sense that people living on the margins would resent outside economic influence and demand that their nation takes care of its own.

It also makes sense that most of us that are fairly well off and are not experiencing economic pain don't understand it and write it off as people being assholes.

 

[Skyline 325]

Don't forget India on the list of countries trending to nationalism. Here's a good podcast covering the rise of nationalism in India by NPR.

I think it stems back to the economic meltdown in 2008. The last rise of nationalism was in the aftermath of the great depression. 

Plus it's cool again to hate anything the reactionaries deem the "other." Easier to blame something external than to address internal problems. 

[Crusher 127]

2 hours ago, DDD Dad said:

Today's finale--Can liberal democracy survive in Europe?

I guess no one else finds this interesting or worthy of discussion?

Well it's over 120 minutes of listening first off. You only assigned it to us yesterday. I thought I could spread it out over the next couple days until our next class Professor?

Have I woke up in some weird time loop? Fuck I am back in college. Am I naked in class as well as unprepared? 

 

[Crusher 127]

OK. Listened to part one.

First thing that grabbed me was when she visited the USA she was amazed at the number of US flags she saw. She remarked that was not something you see in Germany. Well maybe because the last time Germany got loose and was trying to spread its brand of German Nationalism it resulted in the death of approximately 85 million people? The USA is not the same.

Secondly. I don't think Europe trusts an EU dominated by Germans. They do have reasons to distrust. Especially the Brits.

Lastly, Hitler couldn't pull it off but the EU has finally allowed Germany to pull off Hitler's dreams. German dominance of the European continent. They did it without a shot being fired.

 

[SDG 3319]

8 minutes ago, Crusher said:

OK. Listened to part one.

First thing that grabbed me was when she visited the USA she was amazed at the number of US flags she saw. She remarked that was not something you see in Germany. Well maybe because the last time Germany got loose and was trying to spread its brand of German Nationalism it resulted in the death of approximately 85 million people? The USA is not the same.

Secondly. I don't think Europe trusts an EU dominated by Germans. They do have reasons to distrust. Especially the Brits.

Lastly, Hitler couldn't pull it off but the EU has finally allowed Germany to pull off Hitler's dreams. German dominance of the European continent. They did it without a shot being fired.

 

Exactly.  IMO there is nothing wrong with putting Country first, hell im Mexican American and don’t understand why globalism is growing so much.   

[Crusher 127]

3 minutes ago, SDG said:

Exactly.  IMO there is nothing wrong with putting Country first, hell im Mexican American and don’t understand why globalism is growing so much.   

This is not proper thought. The only way we can have one world government is to destroy nationalism. 

That means you and your offspring have to suffer. They have to suffer until we are all equal. Then we are done.

[DDD Dad 14343]

OK. Listened to part one.
First thing that grabbed me was when she visited the USA she was amazed at the number of US flags she saw. She remarked that was not something you see in Germany. Well maybe because the last time Germany got loose and was trying to spread its brand of German Nationalism it resulted in the death of approximately 85 million people? The USA is not the same.
Secondly. I don't think Europe trusts an EU dominated by Germans. They do have reasons to distrust. Especially the Brits.
Lastly, Hitler couldn't pull it off but the EU has finally allowed Germany to pull off Hitler's dreams. German dominance of the European continent. They did it without a shot being fired.
 

Keep listening and keep an open mind.

[Crusher 127]

3 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

Keep listening and keep an open mind.
 

OK..

[bad_teammate 13218]

Crush people's hopes and spirits and they will become tribal.

[SDG 3319]

2 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Crush people's hopes and spirits and they will become tribal.

How’s that working out for Bernie’s hopefuls?  Oh you did a theater major that cost 150k nbd it’s free.  

 

 

Who pays... 

[bad_teammate 13218]

Like a dumber Ben Shapiro.

[Poolflood 845]

2 hours ago, Skyline said:

Don't forget India on the list of countries trending to nationalism. Here's a good podcast covering the rise of nationalism in India by NPR.

I think it stems back to the economic meltdown in 2008. The last rise of nationalism was in the aftermath of the great depression. 

Plus it's cool again to hate anything the reactionaries deem the "other." Easier to blame something external than to address internal problems. 

Well in fairness Gandhi was a nationalist.

Nationalism isn't a bad thing in and of itself.

Edited June 15, 2019 by Poolflood

[Crusher 127]

Thoughts after part 2:

Gas Taxes in France. Why? Where's the money going?

Le Pen? Why are these people even being listened to? Because the pendulum has swung to far away from their beliefs.

Areas of France, other regions worry that their life is done. Because they cannot compete with EU restrictions.

[SDG 3319]

8 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Like a dumber Ben Shapiro.

Better than a positive Bernie...  (I’d like to see some details; I have student loans so if we can make them free....). 

[JimmyJames 12271]

1 hour ago, Crusher said:

This is not proper thought. The only way we can have one world government is to destroy nationalism. 

That means you and your offspring have to suffer. They have to suffer until we are all equal. Then we are done.

When we are all equal we are done.

Them globalists want to destroy the country. All countries in fact. Then we will all suffer. Then after we suffer we are all done, like a well done steak served up with a Heinz ketchup bottle.

Did I miss anything?

[JimmyJames 12271]

22 minutes ago, Crusher said:

Thoughts after part 2:

Gas Taxes in France. Why? Where's the money going?

Le Pen? Why are these people even being listened to? Because the pendulum has swung to far away from their beliefs.

Areas of France, other regions worry that their life is done. Because they cannot compete with EU restrictions.

Deep thoughts. By jack handy.

Sometimes when I post on a message board i have no idea what I’m saying or am meaning to say.

Then I go to sleep. And when I wake up, try to figure out what’s for breakfast.

 

[Crusher 127]

6 minutes ago, JimmyJames said:

When we are all equal we are done.

Them globalists want to destroy the country. All countries in fact. Then we will all suffer. Then after we suffer we are all done, like a well done steak served up with a Heinz ketchup bottle.

Did I miss anything?

You do realize that there are no more countries when true globalism takes effect?

[Crusher 127]

3 minutes ago, JimmyJames said:

Deep thoughts. By jack handy.

Sometimes when I post on a message board i have no idea what I’m saying or am meaning to say.

Then I go to sleep. And when I wake up, try to figure out what’s for breakfast.

 

Have you even bothered to listen to the Pod casts that were the initiator of this thread?

[JimmyJames 12271]

1 minute ago, Crusher said:

You do realize that there are no more countries when true globalism takes effect?

Yessir. And that’s what keeps me up at night unable to sleep. Our only hope is that peeps such as yourself can recognize this imminent threat and can somehow keep posting. God speed.

[Crusher 127]

Just now, JimmyJames said:

Yessir. And that’s what keeps me up at night unable to sleep. Our only hope is that peeps such as yourself can recognize this imminent threat and can somehow keep posting. God speed.

Of course it will not be in our life time. But the fact that people like you exist tells me that it is too late. We are done.

[JimmyJames 12271]

2 minutes ago, Crusher said:

Have you even bothered to listen to the Pod casts that were the initiator of this thread?

Yep. Me and my entire family right at this moment are listening to them in theater surround sound backwards, in order to obtain the secret message like Pink Floyd and the wizard of oz. 

[JimmyJames 12271]

Just now, Crusher said:

Of course it will not be in our life time. But the fact that people like you exist tells me that it is too late. We are done.

Well that sucks. Maybe you could have told us that earlier then? I mean some of us just bought a damn house. And now that’s obviously waste. 

[JimmyJames 12271]

If the globalists fuck with the value of my house I’m gonna be super pissed y’all.

[Crusher 127]

1 minute ago, JimmyJames said:

Yep. Me and my entire family right at this moment are listening to them in theater surround sound backwards, in order to obtain the secret message like Pink Floyd and the wizard of oz. 

OK no. That is what I thought. Is your only purpose in life to wait until you see me posting and throw out some ridiculous argument against me.

Listen to the pod cast and then tell me I'm wrong about the topic. Geeze.

[JimmyJames 12271]

1 minute ago, Crusher said:

OK no. That is what I thought. Is your only purpose in life to wait until you see me posting and throw out some ridiculous argument against me.

Listen to the pod cast and then tell me I'm wrong about the topic. Geeze.

What pod cast?

[Crusher 127]

2 minutes ago, JimmyJames said:

What pod cast?

LOL... The 4 links in the OP?

What a douche.. lol.

 

[JimmyJames 12271]

1 minute ago, Crusher said:

LOL... The 4 links in the OP?

What a douche.. lol.

 

Lol. 

Nevermind. You got me crusher. Much like your hero trump, you have won the day in your own mind. You simply don’t realize how dumb you appear to everyone else but that’s ok. Just let your mind tell you how great you are and maybe someday you can be president too.

Good luck little man. 

[Crusher 127]

1 minute ago, JimmyJames said:

Lol. 

Nevermind. You got me crusher. Much like your hero trump, you have won the day in your own mind. You simply don’t realize how dumb you appear to everyone else but that’s ok. Just let your mind tell you how great you are and maybe someday you can be president too.

Good luck little man. 

Little man ? Trump is like 6'4". How tall are you ?

[Horn Under a Bad Sign 20447]

Pity the nation whose people are sheep
   And whose shepherds mislead them
 Pity the nation whose leaders are liars
            Whose sages are silenced
  And whose bigots haunt the airwaves
 Pity the nation that raises not its voice
          Except  to praise conquerers
       And acclaim the bully as hero
          And aims to rule the world
              By force and by torture
          Pity the nation that knows
        No other language but its own
      And no other culture but its own
 Pity the nation whose breath is money
 And sleeps the sleep of the too well fed
      Pity the nation oh pity the people
        who allow their rights to  erode
   and their freedoms to be washed away
               My country, tears of thee
                   Sweet land of liberty!

---- Lawrence Ferlinghetti

[JimmyJames 12271]

11 minutes ago, Crusher said:

Little man ? Trump is like 6'4". How tall are you ?

If trump is 6’4 then I’m 7’2

Well your credibility just went in the toilet. No that you had any. 6 foot four trump? Ok chief. 

 

Edited June 15, 2019 by JimmyJames

[Crusher 127]

1 minute ago, JimmyJames said:

If trump is 6’4 then I’m 7’2

Well you’re credibility just went in the toilet. No that you had any. 6 foot four trump? Ok chief. 

 

Maybe not..6'4"

 

[tantric superman 4667]

 

People have perception of limited resources being divided up in unjust ways. 

They are going to blame the government and if changing the leaders of government doesn't help, they will blame the system of government.

***

After listening to some podcasts on the issue, I am wondering if overall, people in developed countries have a sense that no that we don't generally enslave people because of the color of their skin, or execute or banish gays, or prohibit women from engaging in civil activities, or force religious groups into camps, that somehow that mean that no it is okay to go with a pure "majority rule" system that tramples on the rights of the minority because - "fuck it, we aren't enslaving or executing them -- if we don't want to bake them a cake they can live with it".  Or, fuck them if they get pissed off about a prayer at a ball game -- we aren't making them wear a six pointed star as an arm band.

In other words, the downside of not respecting minority rights is perceived as less now that it used to be.  The idea that a black is oppressed in our society is laughable in relation to the oppression the black man felt 50 years ago, certainly 150 years ago.

Rather than refocus what liberal democracy means, the left fails to grasp the subtlety required to make communicate what liberal democracy relevant today, and the right seems hellbent on whining about the poor majority and how no one is looking out for THEIR rights. 

[bad_teammate 13218]

51 minutes ago, tantric superman said:

The idea that a black is oppressed in our society is laughable in relation to the oppression the black man felt 50 years ago, certainly 150 years ago.

Who says blacks are worse off in 2019 than they were in 1869?

[safe sex 11735]

Candace Owens lol

[bad_teammate 13218]

21 minutes ago, trauma babe said:

Candace Owens lol

LOL

[tucker 238]

 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

 

[bad_teammate 13218]

6 hours ago, trauma babe said:

Candace Owens lol

I kind of thought this was a joke but it's not a joke

Can someone give me a ticket to leave this planet?

[Anastasis 23478]

I am in airport without headphones so there is no way that I am watching that. But I love some Cornell west and bet he was great. 

[RDCanecutter 26454]

I think Nationalism is a good thing only if so-called nationalists go everywhere in traditional garb. You should be able to spot a Fleming from a Walloon at 800 meters. If not, what's the point?

And we'll extend it to states. All Texans will wear cowboy hats, Californians will carry surfboards, and New Yorkers will dress in suits and talk like 1920s gangster movies, see?

[Junior Miller 1502]

People are culturally trained to be racist and distrustful of anyone who doesn't look like you. Add in biological programming as human survival is achieved in groups/tribes/clans and for thousands of years your family was your clan and they look like you. Always has been and as long as humans maintain human traits always will be. 

Mix into that rampant migration due to political upheaval and a media/political voice directing blame for economic hardship away from the political and wealthy/greedy perpetrators onto scapegoated immigrants. 

It's pretty easy to see really. An individual human can be a great intelligent and positive force. Large populations of humans will always be ignorant and easily manipulated. 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

Good thing billionaires aren’t weaponizing Facebook across large population segments.  That would be a total disaster. 

[tantric superman 4667]

On 6/15/2019 at 8:32 AM, bad_teammate said:

Who says blacks are worse off in 2019 than they were in 1869?

No one with any sense.

[RDCanecutter 26454]

On 6/15/2019 at 8:32 AM, bad_teammate said:

Who says blacks are worse off in 2019 than they were in 1869?

Well, you try to make it to be 140+ years old, and then tell us how good you feel.

[Skyline 325]

On 6/14/2019 at 10:36 PM, Poolflood said:

Well in fairness Gandhi was a nationalist.

Nationalism isn't a bad thing in and of itself.

And that's a fair argument to make. I should've clarified my comment to mean Hindu Nationalists have risen and want to stop having a secular govt in India. They want their own version of Pakistan, just without Muslims. 

[tantric superman 4667]

On 6/15/2019 at 5:17 PM, Anastasis said:

I am in airport without headphones so there is no way that I am watching that. But I love some Cornell west and bet he was great. 

Nobody comes across great when they are trying to argue with an ignoramus who won't shut the fuck up..

Edited June 17, 2019 by tantric superman