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Cairn Horn88

By Cairn Horn88
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Valmy77
Valmy77

I would just like to say fuck Arkansas.

petscii
petscii

FUCK TEXAS TECH.

Uncle Nate
Uncle Nate

Quick side-note to Tech's win today...this W gives Tech now more CWS wins than aggy has.  Just a little icing on the cake.

Augustus

Augustus 3061

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1 minute ago, Cairn Horn88 said:

The Vandy coach has had the #1 recruiting class in 4 of the last 5 years.  He makes at least $2.3 mil/year.  Did Texas look at him at all when considering Pierce?  I'm impressed with his ability to recruit/coach.

He's got an enormous advantage being at Vandy, as do other coaches at private schools.

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Augustus

Augustus 3061

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1 minute ago, Cairn Horn88 said:

The Vandy coach has had the #1 recruiting class in 4 of the last 5 years.  He makes at least $2.3 mil/year.  Did Texas look at him at all when considering Pierce?  I'm impressed with his ability to recruit/coach.

He's got an enormous advantage being at Vandy, as do other coaches at private schools.

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Augustus

Augustus 3061

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1 minute ago, Cairn Horn88 said:

The Vandy coach has had the #1 recruiting class in 4 of the last 5 years.  He makes at least $2.3 mil/year.  Did Texas look at him at all when considering Pierce?  I'm impressed with his ability to recruit/coach.

He's got an enormous advantage being at Vandy, as do other coaches at private schools.

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CDAK

CDAK 216

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41 minutes ago, Augustus said:

He's got an enormous advantage being at Vandy, as do other coaches at private schools.

People say that, but when you ask why, they refer vaguely to scholarship advantages.  I'm not sure I buy it.  Who are the other private school baseball powerhouses?  Stanford? TCU?  They aren't exactly dominating the sport.  It's the big public schools, particularly those in the south and southwest.  And Vandy.

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Augustus

Augustus 3061

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1 minute ago, CDAK said:

People say that, but when you ask why, they refer vaguely to scholarship advantages.  I'm not sure I buy it.  Who are the other private school baseball powerhouses?  Stanford? TCU?  They aren't exactly dominating the sport.  It's the big public schools, particularly those in the south and southwest.  And Vandy.

TCU and Rice have profited, as well.

Dominating the sport isn't the benchmark.  The fact they've been as competitive as they've been is a result of being able to scholarship more players through other means. It's allowed them to compete on a national level with programs with vastly more resources and support.  

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Augustus

Augustus 3061

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1 minute ago, Cairn Horn88 said:

So, I believe Corbin  could be very successful at Texas.  I'm surprised aggy hadn't tried to steal him from Vandy.

I'd be really shocked if no one has explored his interest.  RC is almost certainly headed into his last season.

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cochamps

cochamps 1879

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14 minutes ago, CDAK said:

People say that, but when you ask why, they refer vaguely to scholarship advantages.  I'm not sure I buy it.  Who are the other private school baseball powerhouses?  Stanford? TCU?  They aren't exactly dominating the sport.  It's the big public schools, particularly those in the south and southwest.  And Vandy.

The wealthy private’s like Vandy & Stanford ford will give kids schollies for academics & other things which in essence allows them more than the 11.7 mandated by the NCAA.  Appears to be a clear advantage imo.  Kinda don’t think TCU & Rice have this advantage.

Edited by cochamps
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CDAK

CDAK 216

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2 minutes ago, Augustus said:

TCU and Rice have profited, as well.

Dominating the sport isn't the benchmark.  The fact they've been as competitive as they've been is a result of being able to scholarship more players through other means. It's allowed them to compete on a national level with programs with vastly more resources and support.  

What is the benchmark? 

The top 16 seeds this year included exactly one private school, Vanderbilt. https://www.ncaa.com/news/baseball/article/2019-05-26/16-regional-hosts-selected-2019-di-baseball-tournament

The last private school to win a CWS, Vanderbilt in 2014.  Before that, Rice in 2003. https://www.ncaa.com/news/baseball/article/2019-06-16/ncaa-college-baseball-bracket-2019-printable-college-world-series

I'm skeptical that private schools have any advantage.  

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Augustus

Augustus 3061

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3 minutes ago, CDAK said:

What is the benchmark? 

The top 16 seeds this year included exactly one private school, Vanderbilt. https://www.ncaa.com/news/baseball/article/2019-05-26/16-regional-hosts-selected-2019-di-baseball-tournament

The last private school to win a CWS, Vanderbilt in 2014.  Before that, Rice in 2003. https://www.ncaa.com/news/baseball/article/2019-06-16/ncaa-college-baseball-bracket-2019-printable-college-world-series

I'm skeptical that private schools have any advantage.  

Well if you don't think being able to scholarship more players is an advantage, then why do you think there are scholarship limits?

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CDAK

CDAK 216

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Just now, Augustus said:

Well if you don't think being able to scholarship more players is an advantage, then why do you think there are scholarship limits?

Can you provide any metrics or data showing that they actually scholarship more players? 

And if they are actually able to scholarship more players, why aren't they recruiting better?  I think there are 3 private schools in the top 25 recruiting rankings this year.  https://www.perfectgame.org/Rankings/Recruiting/Rankings.aspx

And why aren't they performing better?

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Cairn Horn88

Cairn Horn88 8447

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7 minutes ago, CDAK said:

Can you provide any metrics or data showing that they actually scholarship more players? 

And if they are actually able to scholarship more players, why aren't they recruiting better?  I think there are 3 private schools in the top 25 recruiting rankings this year.  https://www.perfectgame.org/Rankings/Recruiting/Rankings.aspx

And why aren't they performing better?

I read somewhere that Vandy gave out about 10 more scholarships than other schools.  I will see if I can find a link.

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Augustus

Augustus 3061

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4 minutes ago, CDAK said:

Can you provide any metrics or data showing that they actually scholarship more players? 

And if they are actually able to scholarship more players, why aren't they recruiting better?  I think there are 3 private schools in the top 25 recruiting rankings this year.  https://www.perfectgame.org/Rankings/Recruiting/Rankings.aspx

And why aren't they performing better?

Why hasn't Texas football dominated the Big 12 since its inception?  They outrecruit every other conference team consistently--according to the bloggers and Longhorn fans.

I'd suggest because, for the small private school baseball teams, it's not just a function of how many players are on scholarship, legit or not.

Even with ability to scholarship some extra players, they're still battling the the same disadvantages against the bigger, more resourceful and historically better programs.

And then there's the coaching factor.  An abundance of talent doesn't guarantee success.

It's just one factor among many, but it has given schools like Vandy a chance to compete at a high level, as they have for several years now, including a national championship and at least one top-ranked recruiting class.  But it's not the only piece of the puzzle.

How successful would Vandy have been recently if they lacked that advantage?  I don't know.

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CDAK

CDAK 216

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8 minutes ago, Augustus said:

Why hasn't Texas football dominated the Big 12 since its inception?  They outrecruit every other conference team consistently--according to the bloggers and Longhorn fans.

I'd suggest because, for the small private school baseball teams, it's not just a function of how many players are on scholarship, legit or not.

Even with ability to scholarship some extra players, they're still battling the the same disadvantages against the bigger, more resourceful and historically better programs.

And then there's the coaching factor.  An abundance of talent doesn't guarantee success.

It's just one factor among many, but it has given schools like Vandy a chance to compete at a high level, as they have for several years now, including a national championship and at least one top-ranked recruiting class.  But it's not the only piece of the puzzle.

How successful would Vandy have been recently if they lacked that advantage?  I don't know.

There are dozens (hundreds?) of private schools competing in college baseball.  Your analogy to the performance of one school is a bad one.  One school can be an outlier.  

You also didn't address recruiting.  You addressed only performance.  Why aren't the private schools recruiting better if they have all these extra scholarships to hand out?

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CDAK

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13 minutes ago, Cairn Horn88 said:

I read somewhere that Vandy gave out about 10 more scholarships than other schools.  I will see if I can find a link.

I would buy that there are a few (like 2 or 3) private schools that bend the rules to hand out more scholarships with Vandy being the ringleader.  But I am interested in the link if you find it.  I don't think it's commonplace across private schools as Augustus suggested.

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Augustus

Augustus 3061

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5 minutes ago, CDAK said:

There are dozens (hundreds?) of private schools competing in college baseball.  Your analogy to the performance of one school is a bad one.  One school can be an outlier.  

You also didn't address recruiting.  You addressed only performance.  Why aren't the private schools recruiting better if they have all these extra scholarships to hand out?

If you're a hotshot prospect, and you've got an offer from schools like LSU, Florida, etc, are you gonna choose Vandy just because they have more scholarships to offer?

Like I said, it's only one piece of a huge puzzle.

I suspect you're right that it's not something that's happening at every private school with a baseball program, but I don't doubt that it's benfited TCU and Vandy tremendously in recent years.

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CDAK

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12 minutes ago, Augustus said:

If you're a hotshot prospect, and you've got an offer from schools like LSU, Florida, etc, are you gonna choose Vandy just because they have more scholarships to offer?

Like I said, it's only one piece of a huge puzzle.

I suspect you're right that it's not something that's happening at every private school with a baseball program, but I don't doubt that it's benfited TCU and Vandy tremendously in recent years.

I think scholarship money is a huge piece of the puzzle that often dwarfs other considerations.  And yes, I wouldn't hesitate to pay less at Vandy, Duke, Stanford, Rice, and TCU than paying more at LSU, Florida, Arkansas, Florida State, and Mississippi State.  But yet, other than Vandy, the public schools all outrecruit and outperform the privates.

(Edited to add that TCU did outrecruit some of the public schools this year at least)

Edited by CDAK
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Cairn Horn88

Cairn Horn88 8447

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Real cost of attendance: 
Vanderbilt - $0 unless your family makes $250k+  
Oh, and they have a no-loan policy at Vanderbilt. It's literally Cost of Attendance Minus EFC is what they ask you to pay. If you can't pay it, they gift it.  

https://admissions.vanderbilt.edu/vandybloggers/2010/08/need-based-financial-aid-at-vanderbilt/

For an average Southern middle class family, Vanderbilt is actually the second cheapest college option. As you can see on the chart below, the average cost is $7,300. Vanderbilt baseball can give a 1/6 scholarship and cover that.  

Image: http://www.thecollegesolution.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/denison.jpg

Household AGI under $100k - You pay nothing.  
Household AGI under $175k - You barely pay anything.  

You only pay full price if your household AGI is over $250k.  

Its the same model that the Ivy League, Duke and Stanford have used for years. They are calling it Opportunity Vanderbilt.  

Add that to the fact that athletes have lesser academic qualifications than standard students at Vanderbilt, and its an attractive place - especially for athletes in minor sports. I mean, they aren't letting 15 ACTs in like some schools, but if you are good enough and want to play at Vanderbilt, a 23-24 type ACT is good enough.  

Vandy has a lot of academic scholarship $$ to offer and with good coaching, this has provided them with an advantage that public schools are not necessarily able to match.  Vandy wants smart kids who can play baseball.

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cochamps

cochamps 1879

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A co-worker of mine had a son who was a highly rated recruit a few years ago.  Most of the schools offered him about 80% of a scholarship.  These included TCU, Rice, aTm.  Texas and LSU offered like 65%.  

Financially, his best offer was aggy because his 20% there was less than the two private schools.  Since $ was a primary consideration, he chose aggy.  

 

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BillyGoatHill

BillyGoatHill 4368

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1 hour ago, cochamps said:

The wealthy private’s like Vandy & Stanford ford will give kids schollies for academics & other things which in essence allows them more than the 11.7 mandated by the NCAA.  Appears to be a clear advantage imo.  Kinda don’t think TCU & Rice have this advantage.

^ This......Vandy (the poor/not really poor school in the SEC) skirting the NCAA on a different level. 

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CDAK

CDAK 216

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Cairn Horn88 said:

Real cost of attendance: 
Vanderbilt - $0 unless your family makes $250k+  
Oh, and they have a no-loan policy at Vanderbilt. It's literally Cost of Attendance Minus EFC is what they ask you to pay. If you can't pay it, they gift it.  

https://admissions.vanderbilt.edu/vandybloggers/2010/08/need-based-financial-aid-at-vanderbilt/

For an average Southern middle class family, Vanderbilt is actually the second cheapest college option. As you can see on the chart below, the average cost is $7,300. Vanderbilt baseball can give a 1/6 scholarship and cover that.  

Image: http://www.thecollegesolution.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/denison.jpg

Household AGI under $100k - You pay nothing.  
Household AGI under $175k - You barely pay anything.  

You only pay full price if your household AGI is over $250k.  

Its the same model that the Ivy League, Duke and Stanford have used for years. They are calling it Opportunity Vanderbilt.  

Add that to the fact that athletes have lesser academic qualifications than standard students at Vanderbilt, and its an attractive place - especially for athletes in minor sports. I mean, they aren't letting 15 ACTs in like some schools, but if you are good enough and want to play at Vanderbilt, a 23-24 type ACT is good enough.  

Vandy has a lot of academic scholarship $$ to offer and with good coaching, this has provided them with an advantage that public schools are not necessarily able to match.  Vandy wants smart kids who can play baseball.

Thanks for sharing. That’s an awesome policy if you’re a Vandy student. They’re not skirting NCAA rules to give academic scholarships to baseball players. They’re giving every student a free ride whose parents make less than 100k. I doubt many private schools have the money to do that.

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Cairn Horn88

Cairn Horn88 8447

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22 minutes ago, CDAK said:

Thanks for sharing. That’s an awesome policy if you’re a Vandy student. They’re not skirting NCAA rules to give academic scholarships to baseball players. They’re giving every student a free ride whose parents make less than 100k. I doubt many private schools have the money to do that.

Okay, so what exactly does this have to do with baseball?

It has everything to do with baseball! No, not really, but the Opportunity Vanderbilt initiative has a direct effect on Vanderbilt baseball because of NCAA scholarship rules.

Unlike football and basketball, the two “head count” sports (there are more, but those are the two in which Vanderbilt competes), baseball is considered an “equivalency” sport by the NCAA. What that means is that instead of simply counting the number of student-athletes who are getting financial aid related to athletics (or were “recruited” athletes who are getting any sort of financial aid from the university), the NCAA counts the total amount of athletic aid received by players in the sport. In football, if a team had two players who are getting a 50 percent scholarship, that would count as two scholarships against the 85-scholarship limit. In baseball, it would count as one scholarship against the limit of 11.7.

Where things get tricky with baseball and other equivalency sports, though, is in deciding what financial aid counts toward the scholarship limit. That’s a two-step process: first, the NCAA determines if a student-athlete is a “counter” for scholarship purposes. In equivalency sports, that means that some portion of the student-athlete’s financial aid is athletic aid. Once you’re a counter, all of your financial aid from the university is counted toward the scholarship limit, regardless of whether it’s athletic aid or not. But if you’re not considered a “counter” — meaning that you aren’t on an athletic scholarship — none of your financial aid counts toward the limit, even if you’re getting your entire cost of attendance paid for.

That latter part is, more than likely, the basis of the complaints from other baseball programs. Vanderbilt can simply give a player a full ride through need-based grants, and they get a player on a full ride without it counting against the scholarship limit. That seems like it would be kind of a big deal, right?

Well, the reality is that grants covering the full cost of attendance are actually pretty rare. Here’s a handy brochure (a few years old, but it gets the point across) about the Opportunity Vanderbilt program, and while there are certainly students getting something close to the full cost of attendance, they’re the exception and not the rule. And they’re mostly coming from the lower end of the income scale. (As that relates to college baseball, you’re not really supposed to talk about this — but probably the majority of college baseball players come from affluent families ... you know, the same parents who have had their kids on travel baseball teams since they were 10. Relatively few of them are in the income range where Opportunity Vanderbilt is knocking $60,000 off the cost of attendance.)

The other issue here is that if a player is also getting a baseball scholarship, any financial aid they’re getting from Opportunity Vanderbilt gets counted against the scholarship limit. This actually puts Vanderbilt in something of a tricky spot if a player is, say, getting an aid package around $40,000 or so: that puts the player in a position where he’s still paying what he would pay to attend a state school, but a state school might be able to put him on scholarship and make his cost of attending even lower than what Vanderbilt can.

Probably too much info....but..fyi.

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F250

F250 28991

Posted
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5 minutes ago, Cairn Horn88 said:

As that relates to college baseball, you’re not really supposed to talk about this — but probably the majority of college baseball players come from affluent families

I think this is a well known secret and considered bad for the sport as it narrows the appeal of baseball to certain demographics. Not necessarily the college part but the fact that the barrier to entry excludes the lower class unlike basketball and football. Although football is pretty unique in that it's subsidized by the government from 7th grade through college.

 

 

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