2019-2020 NBA Season Thread

[Harrison Stafford 3349]

1 hour ago, ztejas said:

Rockets

Chris Paul, Harden, TMac, who gives a fuck, Hakeem

 

 

Insert Moses Malone in place of who gives a fuck.

[ztejas 43558]

1 minute ago, Harrison Stafford said:

Insert Moses Malone in place of who gives a fuck.

Good call. Totally forgot he was with Houston before Philly.

Yeah, that team would fuck. Slot them above Lakers 2nd team, too, in my book. 

[Mitch Cumsteen 18598]

14 minutes ago, ztejas said:

I'm not sure what teams we're talking about, if they were already listed I missed it, so I'll just list what I think would be the consensus version of each:

1. Magic, Kobe, LeBron, AD, Shaq

2. West, Baylor, Worthy, Kareem, Wilt

I would not take that 2nd team over the Warriors, Spurs or SEA/OKC and I don't think it would be that close (maybe the Seattle team). Any version of KD would give them fucking nightmares. The size down low would be interesting against Kemp and Haywood from the Seattle team but I think the backcourt and SF makes up for it. 

You could argue the Spurs are better at 3/5, maybe 4/5 positions outside of West at point. Kawhi > Baylor (that might upset some olds but it's true), Gervin > Worthy, peak Duncan > Lakers Kareem, peak DRob probably = to Lakers Wilt or better.

Warriors would run them off the court. Their only minus is at the 4 spot where you have to settle with Draymond against Kareem. They get prime Steph/Klay/KD or Steph/Barry/KD and a better version of Wilt. Lakers 1st team would be a more interesting matchup for the Ws 1st team. 

 

The thing about the Lakers is that they are a bit center-heavy. Wilt, Shaq, Sacre, Kareem. It kinda skews their all-time teams because you really can't play any two of those at the same time. Davis could play with anybody at the 5 because of his range on both ends, so I get why he would be on the first team. But it doesn't seem right to have him above Kareem after a single (Covid-fucked) season in LA. 

[Eskimohorn 5644]

What’s interesting about these all-time teams is that they probably wouldnt be the best versions of these teams. Since all-time teams would value scoring, you get diminishing returns on the 4th and 5th guy, especially if they’re not elite defenders or flexible in different eras.

All time Spurs would be:

Robinson
Duncan
Leonard
Gervin
Parker

But really you might want Bruce Bowen being your 5th option on offense so he could get in people’s jocks on the other end. Or prime Manu.

[ztejas 43558]

2 minutes ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

But it doesn't seem right to have him above Kareem after a single (Covid-fucked) season in LA. 

I'm just listing their best possible lineups. Not really going off of accomplishments, where Kareem would obviously be above AD. 

[ztejas 43558]

2 minutes ago, Eskimohorn said:

What’s interesting about these all-time teams is that they probably wouldnt be the best versions of these teams. Since all-time teams would value scoring, you get diminishing returns on the 4th and 5th guy, especially if they’re not elite defenders or flexible in different eras.

All time Spurs would be:

Robinson
Duncan
Leonard
Gervin
Parker

But really you might want Bruce Bowen being your 5th option on offense so he could get in people’s jocks on the other end. Or prime Manu.

Yeah I could see bumping Gervin for Bowen. Spurs probably aren't the best example for what you're getting at, though, since DRob, Duncan, Kawhi are all elite defenders and peak Manu was just a hair below elite on that end.

[hobbes2702 13084]

2 hours ago, Sbbruin said:

None of those teams beat aWilt, Shaq, AD, Baylor, Goodrich team.  

You put those three guys on the floor together and every team with two guards that can shoot beats them

[Underdog 28810]

Plus, FTs would be a liability with Wilt/Shaq on the floor at the same time. 

[aggie08 21561]

I like Sbbruin--and obviously he's riding pretty high right now--but this is why everyone hates Lakers' fans. It's not enough to be the best franchise in professional sports; you have to lay on the hyperbole pretty thick as well.

Take Chicago, probably one of the "weakest" all-time teams being listed as challengers to the Lakers' 2nd team: you're essentially taking arguably the best player of all-time and arguably the best team of all-time and adding another MVP (dubious as it was) and a huge upgrade at center.

"Nah, they couldn't even stay on the floor with them. Gail Goodrich has got this."

[d2o 1602]

1 hour ago, ztejas said:

I'm not sure what teams we're talking about, if they were already listed I missed it, so I'll just list what I think would be the consensus version of each:

1. Magic, Kobe, LeBron, AD, Shaq

2. West, Baylor, Worthy, Kareem, Wilt

I would not take that 2nd team over the Warriors, Spurs or SEA/OKC and I don't think it would be that close (maybe the Seattle team). Any version of KD would give them fucking nightmares. The size down low would be interesting against Kemp and Haywood from the Seattle team but I think the backcourt and SF makes up for it. 

You could argue the Spurs are better at 3/5, maybe 4/5 positions outside of West at point. Kawhi > Baylor (that might upset some olds but it's true), Gervin > Worthy, peak Duncan > Lakers Kareem, peak DRob probably = to Lakers Wilt or better.

Warriors would run them off the court. Their only minus is at the 4 spot where you have to settle with Draymond against Kareem. They get prime Steph/Klay/KD or Steph/Barry/KD and a better version of Wilt. Lakers 1st team would be a more interesting matchup for the Ws 1st team. 

 

Not sure on that.  A lot of people only remember bald older Kareem but peak Laker Kareem went for 27/17 and 4 blk/gm and won multiple MVPs

 

EDIT:  Not even sure about Robinson over Laker Wilt.  Peak Laker Wilt went for 20/21 and 4 asts.  They didnt even count blks back then but we all know he was a monster defensively.

Edited October 16, 2020 by d2o

[d2o 1602]

1 hour ago, Harrison Stafford said:

Insert Moses Malone in place of who gives a fuck.

Yeah, definitely forgot about Moses as a Rocket somehow.

[ztejas 43558]

6 minutes ago, d2o said:

Not sure on that.  A lot of people only remember bald older Kareem but peak Laker Kareem went for 27/17 and 4 blk/gm and won multiple MVPs

You're right. I was thinking he played for MIL for a few more seasons than he did. '77 Kareem and '03 Duncan are pretty neck and neck. I'd take Duncan but I'm obviously biased 🙂

[d2o 1602]

1 hour ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

The thing about the Lakers is that they are a bit center-heavy. Wilt, Shaq, Sacre, Kareem. It kinda skews their all-time teams because you really can't play any two of those at the same time. Davis could play with anybody at the 5 because of his range on both ends, so I get why he would be on the first team. But it doesn't seem right to have him above Kareem after a single (Covid-fucked) season in LA. 

I see what you did there

[d2o 1602]

41 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

I like Sbbruin--and obviously he's riding pretty high right now--but this is why everyone hates Lakers' fans. It's not enough to be the best franchise in professional sports; you have to lay on the hyperbole pretty thick as well.

Take Chicago, probably one of the "weakest" all-time teams being listed as challengers to the Lakers' 2nd team: you're essentially taking arguably the best player of all-time and arguably the best team of all-time and adding another MVP (dubious as it was) and a huge upgrade at center.

"Nah, they couldn't even stay on the floor with them. Gail Goodrich has got this."

Cmon man, he's rolling.   Let him go

[Sbbruin 21900]

16 minutes ago, ztejas said:

You're right. I was thinking he played for MIL for a few more seasons than he did. '77 Kareem and '03 Duncan are pretty neck and neck. I'd take Duncan but I'm obviously biased 🙂

Hahahaha.  ‘77 Kareem was one of the best all time

oK, I’m gonna bow out of this.  I don’t mean to stir up a lot of shit.  

Edited October 16, 2020 by Sbbruin

[aggie08 21561]

4 minutes ago, Sbbruin said:

oK, I’m gonna bow out of this.  I don’t mean to stir up a lot of shit.  

You're good. This is way more fun than political memes and ratings conversations.

[d2o 1602]

Wait, I missed that Gervin > Worthy thing.   That's interesting

[ztejas 43558]

17 minutes ago, Sbbruin said:

‘77 Kareem was one of the best all time

Right. I'm comparing him to 2003 MVP, 1st team all-defense, playoffs points/rebounds/blocks DWS/OWS, WS/48, VORP leader FMVP Tim Duncan. Not Patrick Ewing.

[ztejas 43558]

10 minutes ago, d2o said:

Wait, I missed that Gervin > Worthy thing.   That's interesting

Nah. Maybe because Gervin gets underrated. Gervin put up 33 ppg on 53% from the field in 1980 without any all-star teammates. 

Kawhi vs. Baylor is more interesting imo.

[Mitch Cumsteen 18598]

25 minutes ago, d2o said:

Wait, I missed that Gervin > Worthy thing.   That's interesting

I was a huge James Worthy fan, especially after he got arrested for hiring prostitutes for a threesome about two hours before game time and still made it to the game before haltfime and scored 24 points, but Ice was in another class. Gervin has the 9th highest scoring average in the history of the league (at a time when teams actually played defense), five first-team all nba selections and one second team, and five top 5 MVP finishes including finishing second twice. James Worthy was the third wheel who came up huge in big games, but his high water mark was finishing third team All-NBA twice. Great player, great goggles, unbelievable in the post and filling the lane on the break, but nobody in their right mind thinks that he's better than Ice.

Edited October 16, 2020 by Mitch Cumsteen

[SilasCoade 2622]

TIL, do not fuck with Mitch when it comes to great spurs.

[Hate 20149]

I was a huge James Worthy fan, especially after he got arrested for hiring prostitutes for a threesome about two hours before game time and still made it to the game before haltfime and scored 24 points, but Ice was in another class. Gervin has the 9th highest scoring average in the history of the league (at a time when teams actually played defense), five first-team all nba selections and one second team, and five top 5 MVP finishes including finishing second twice. James Worthy was the third wheel who came up huge in big games, but his high water mark was finishing third team All-NBA twice. Great player, great goggles, unbelievable in the post and filling the lane on the break, but nobody in their right mind thinks that he's better than Ice.

I saw James Worthy at the resort we stayed in at Cabo. He went walking by the pool one day with a couple of “pros” pulling their suitcases behind them. They disappeared into the elevator leading to the penthouse suites. I saw him later with his 2 friends on one of those beach futon beds and gave him a tip of the cap. He gave me the thumbs up back. /csb

[Harrison Stafford 3349]

2 hours ago, Eskimohorn said:

What’s interesting about these all-time teams is that they probably wouldnt be the best versions of these teams. Since all-time teams would value scoring, you get diminishing returns on the 4th and 5th guy, especially if they’re not elite defenders or flexible in different eras.

All time Spurs would be:

Robinson
Duncan
Leonard
Gervin
Parker

But really you might want Bruce Bowen being your 5th option on offense so he could get in people’s jocks on the other end. Or prime Manu.

Alvin Robertson has to be in the conversation as a 5th option.  He’s one of only three Spurs to win a Defensive POY award along with Kawhi and Robinson.

[d2o 1602]

44 minutes ago, ztejas said:

Nah. Maybe because Gervin gets underrated. Gervin put up 33 ppg on 53% from the field in 1980 without any all-star teammates. 

Kawhi vs. Baylor is more interesting imo.

 

36 minutes ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

I was a huge James Worthy fan, especially after he got arrested for hiring prostitutes for a threesome about two hours before game time and still made it to the game before haltfime and scored 24 points, but Ice was in another class. Gervin has the 9th highest scoring average in the history of the league (at a time when teams actually played defense), five first-team all nba selections and one second team, and five top 5 MVP finishes including finishing second twice. James Worthy was the third wheel who came up huge in big games, but his high water mark was finishing third team All-NBA twice. Great player, great goggles, unbelievable in the post and filling the lane on the break, but nobody in their right mind thinks that he's better than Ice.

Dont get me wrong Gerv (Detroit STAND UP!!)  can score with the best of them.   Having him on all-time team though might put him down in the pecking order a bit.    He didn't do a whole lot of other stuff outside of scoring.   Worthy on the other hand (as mentioned) was very suited to playing the back at times but could also be the best on the floor at times.

[Kermit 3159]

4 minutes ago, d2o said:

 

Dont get me wrong Gerv (Detroit STAND UP!!)  can score with the best of them.   Having him on all-time team though might put him down in the pecking order a bit.    He didn't do a whole lot of other stuff outside of scoring.   Worthy on the other hand (as mentioned) was very suited to playing the back at times but could also be the best on the floor at times.

Plus, you know, he was a Laker which makes the slobbing of his near-sighted, goggle-laden knob 10X greater.

[ztejas 43558]

8 minutes ago, d2o said:

 

Dont get me wrong Gerv (Detroit STAND UP!!)  can score with the best of them.   Having him on all-time team though might put him down in the pecking order a bit.    He didn't do a whole lot of other stuff outside of scoring.   Worthy on the other hand (as mentioned) was very suited to playing the back at times but could also be the best on the floor at times.

I mean, I get what you're getting at. I just don't see any role where Gervin isn't the better player. Prime Gervin on the showtime Lakers would have been fucking ridiculous.

[Hate 20149]

Alvin Robertson has to be in the conversation as a 5th option.  He’s one of only three Spurs to win a Defensive POY award along with Kawhi and Robinson.

He’s also one of only 5 players to ever have a quadruple double and the only non-center to do so. He got his in points, assists, rebounds, and steals. Also a fun fact, I was there for this game and David Robinson’s as well. We used to have season tickets right in front of Alvin’s wife, Jackie, and used to talk to her all of the time. She was a very nice lady. Alvin turned out to be a bit so good person which is a shame. He was a great player for a while. The 85-86 Spurs were really really good until Johnny Moore came down with Desert Fever.

[d2o 1602]

2 minutes ago, Hate said:

He’s also one of only 5 players to ever have a quadruple double and the only non-center to do so. He got his in points, assists, rebounds, and steals. Also a fun fact, I was there for this game and David Robinson’s as well. We used to have season tickets right in front of Alvin’s wife, Jackie, and used to talk to her all of the time. She was a very nice lady. Alvin turned out to be a bit so good person which is a shame. He was a great player for a while. The 85-86 Spurs were really really good until Johnny Moore came down with Desert Fever.

He is forever known in my circle of friends as the Auburn Hills Strangler after he choked out the Pistons GM.

[hobbes2702 13084]

1 hour ago, aggie08 said:

You're good. This is way more fun than political memes and ratings conversations.

 

1 hour ago, Sbbruin said:

Hahahaha.  ‘77 Kareem was one of the best all time

oK, I’m gonna bow out of this.  I don’t mean to stir up a lot of shit.  

This is the kinda shit the internet is for lol

[ztejas 43558]

8 minutes ago, Hate said:

Also a fun fact, I was there for this game and David Robinson’s as well.

Dude that's fucking crazy. You're probably one of a few thousand people to have been at 2 NBA quad double games - only because I'm guessing a good amount of other Spurs fans were at both.

[TommyGufano 6021]

1 hour ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

I was a huge James Worthy fan, especially after he got arrested for hiring prostitutes for a threesome about two hours before game time and still made it to the game before haltfime and scored 24 points, but Ice was in another class. Gervin has the 9th highest scoring average in the history of the league (at a time when teams actually played defense), five first-team all nba selections and one second team, and five top 5 MVP finishes including finishing second twice. James Worthy was the third wheel who came up huge in big games, but his high water mark was finishing third team All-NBA twice. Great player, great goggles, unbelievable in the post and filling the lane on the break, but nobody in their right mind thinks that he's better than Ice.

I disagree with this point.

[Mitch Cumsteen 18598]

24 minutes ago, d2o said:

 

Dont get me wrong Gerv (Detroit STAND UP!!)  can score with the best of them.   Having him on all-time team though might put him down in the pecking order a bit.    He didn't do a whole lot of other stuff outside of scoring.   Worthy on the other hand (as mentioned) was very suited to playing the back at times but could also be the best on the floor at times.

Two sides of the same coin. How effective would Worthy have been if he had to be the primary option? You think James Worthy is leading the league in scoring 4 times lined up next to Mike Gale (RIP) and Billy Paultz? You think James Worthy is dragging three teams to the conference finals as its best player? No way in hell.

With regard to not doing a whole lot of other stuff besides scoring, Ice averaged about the same number of rebounds, assists and blocks that Worthy did. Worthy was a shitty defender too. What exactly could Worthy do significantly better than Ice? Not scoring, that's for fucking sure. And even with a much higher usage rate, not to mention having to create his own shot most of the time and playing farther away from the basket, Ice still only shot 1 percentage point lower than Worthy did for his career. I loved Big Game James and I feel a little shitty tearing him down here, but Ice was better. He just was. Like, not even close.

And if you want to go the route of pushing him down the pecking order on an all-time team, how exactly is Kobe supposed to play nice sharing the ball with all those other guys? We know how it ended with Shaq. That argument really goes for any of those guys, since we are talking hypotheticals here.

15 minutes ago, ztejas said:

I mean, I get what you're getting at. I just don't see any role where Gervin isn't the better player. Prime Gervin on the showtime Lakers would have been fucking ridiculous.

This. Can you imagine how many easy baskets Ice could have gotten with Magic feeding him or Kareem getting doubled?

[Hate 20149]

Yeah, I’m sure there are bunch of Spurs fans that were at both games as well. It was pretty cool to witness them both. The Alvin one was strange because it kind of sneaked up in everyone. I can’t recall if the “Jumbotron” had a category for steals back then or if the PA addressor had to mention it. For Robinson’s, it seemed like the whole crowd was aware of what was going on and was cheering him on.

[Harrison Stafford 3349]

2 minutes ago, Hate said:

Yeah, I’m sure there are bunch of Spurs fans that were at both games as well. It was pretty cool to witness them both. The Alvin one was strange because it kind of sneaked up in everyone. I can’t recall if the “Jumbotron” had a category for steals back then or if the PA addressor had to mention it. For Robinson’s, it seemed like the whole crowd was aware of what was going on and was cheering him on.

Steals aren't usually as dramatic as blocks in the eyes of the crowd.

[Mitch Cumsteen 18598]

4 minutes ago, TommyGufano said:

I disagree with this point.

Fair enough but they at least allowed hand checking and physical play in the post. There was certainly more defense being played then than there is today, but if you want to argue mid-90's or so when they games got so ugly? Then sure. 

[Kermit 3159]

9 minutes ago, Harrison Stafford said:

Steals aren't usually as dramatic as blocks in the eyes of the crowd.

Getting 10 steals has to be ridiculously rare. 
 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_National_Basketball_Association_single-game_steals_leaders

Alvin did it four times. It’s only been done 24 times.  

Edited October 16, 2020 by Kermit

[Harrison Stafford 3349]

Just now, Kermit said:

Getting 10 steals has to be ridiculously rare. 

Indeed, but I would submit it's easier for most fans to be cognizant of any one player blocking ten shots in a game as opposed to any one player pulling off ten steals.  Blocks have a greater "wow" factor. Steals can be subtle.  In today's game, so many players try to swat a ball into the seats which causes a stoppage of action and the greater opportunity for fans to reflect on what just happened.  You make a steal and (more often than not) play continues.  

[Patrick Bateman 3933]

5 hours ago, Eskimohorn said:

What’s interesting about these all-time teams is that they probably wouldnt be the best versions of these teams. Since all-time teams would value scoring, you get diminishing returns on the 4th and 5th guy, especially if they’re not elite defenders or flexible in different eras.

All time Spurs would be:

Robinson
Duncan
Leonard
Gervin
Parker

But really you might want Bruce Bowen being your 5th option on offense so he could get in people’s jocks on the other end. Or prime Manu.

Nah.  And it would be monumentally silly to put Bruce Bowen in the starting lineup.  Manu at his peak was a better all around player than Gervin and that's not slight t0 the Iceman and I'm sure that may ruffle some old timers feathers but it's true especially when you consider both ends of the court and trying to space around the twin towers.

Their peakish seasons.

Rk	Player	Season	Age	G	MP	PER	TS%	3PAr	FTr	ORB%	DRB%	TRB%	AST%	STL%	BLK%	TOV%	USG%		OWS	DWS	WS	WS/48		OBPM	DBPM	BPM	VORP
1	George Gervin*	1977-78	25	82	2857	24.7	.594		.377	4.5	10.6	7.7	16.1	2.1	1.9	14.0	29.5		9.2	2.7	12.0	.201		4.8	0.0	4.8	4.9
2	Manu Ginóbili	2007-08	30	74	2299	24.3	.612	.395	.449	3.3	14.7	9.1	26.4	2.6	1.1	14.5	28.7		6.6	4.5	11.1	.232		5.6	2.7	8.3	6.0

You can maybe debate which are their peak season but these are in their top 2-3 certainly and arguably their best.  

Iceman was great, but Manu was amazing just masked as a "bench player" or "6th man".  The decision is Parker vs Gervin but as a fit then it's probably still Parker.  

 

 

[Vic Mackey 47183]

[Mitch Cumsteen 18598]

On 10/16/2020 at 4:49 PM, Patrick Bateman said:

Nah.  And it would be monumentally silly to put Bruce Bowen in the starting lineup.  Manu at his peak was a better all around player than Gervin and that's not slight t0 the Iceman and I'm sure that may ruffle some old timers feathers but it's true especially when you consider both ends of the court and trying to space around the twin towers.

Their peakish seasons.

Rk	Player	Season	Age	G	MP	PER	TS%	3PAr	FTr	ORB%	DRB%	TRB%	AST%	STL%	BLK%	TOV%	USG%		OWS	DWS	WS	WS/48		OBPM	DBPM	BPM	VORP
1	George Gervin*	1977-78	25	82	2857	24.7	.594		.377	4.5	10.6	7.7	16.1	2.1	1.9	14.0	29.5		9.2	2.7	12.0	.201		4.8	0.0	4.8	4.9
2	Manu Ginóbili	2007-08	30	74	2299	24.3	.612	.395	.449	3.3	14.7	9.1	26.4	2.6	1.1	14.5	28.7		6.6	4.5	11.1	.232		5.6	2.7	8.3	6.0

You can maybe debate which are their peak season but these are in their top 2-3 certainly and arguably their best.  

Iceman was great, but Manu was amazing just masked as a "bench player" or "6th man".  The decision is Parker vs Gervin but as a fit then it's probably still Parker.  

 

 

Damn you Bateman. Don't make me do this. These are my two all-time favorite basketball players, ever. But I'm going to say this one last time: George Gervin finished second in MVP voting twice, two other times he finished top 5 and he finished 6th once (all over a five year period where he was also named first team all NBA each year). I think that is generally considered enough evidence to say he was a top 5 player in the league at his prime. And I fucking love Manu to death, but there is no way you can say that about him. He has 2 third-team all-nba awards as his individual zenith.

Those advanced stats are next to worthless without context. And specifically, that context is 30 years wide (+/- a three point line) and complementary players with a gulf as large as the difference between Tony Parker to Mike Gale; and Tim Duncan to Billy Paultz. 

[ztejas 43558]

17 minutes ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

Damn you Bateman. Don't make me do this. These are my two all-time favorite basketball players, ever. But I'm going to say this one last time: George Gervin finished second in MVP voting twice, two other times he finished top 5 and he finished 6th once (all over a five year period where he was also named first team all NBA each year). I think that is generally considered enough evidence to say he was a top 5 player in the league at his prime. And I fucking love Manu to death, but there is no way you can say that about him. He has 2 third-team all-nba awards as his individual zenith.

Those advanced stats are next to worthless without context. And specifically, that context is 30 years wide (+/- a three point line) and complementary players with a gulf as large as the difference between Tony Parker to Mike Gale; and Tim Duncan to Billy Paultz. 

You can definitely make the case peak Manu was a top 5 player in the league. He was at least top 10. 

[Brothahorn 10087]

On 10/16/2020 at 10:27 AM, ztejas said:

I'm not sure what teams we're talking about, if they were already listed I missed it, so I'll just list what I think would be the consensus version of each:

1. Magic, Kobe, LeBron, AD, Shaq

2. West, Baylor, Worthy, Kareem, Wilt

I would not take that 2nd team over the Warriors, Spurs or SEA/OKC and I don't think it would be that close (maybe the Seattle team). Any version of KD would give them fucking nightmares. The size down low would be interesting against Kemp and Haywood from the Seattle team but I think the backcourt and SF makes up for it. 

You could argue the Spurs are better at 3/5, maybe 4/5 positions outside of West at point. Kawhi > Baylor (that might upset some olds but it's true), Gervin > Worthy, peak Duncan > Lakers Kareem, peak DRob probably = to Lakers Wilt or better.

Warriors would run them off the court. Their only minus is at the 4 spot where you have to settle with Draymond against Kareem. They get prime Steph/Klay/KD or Steph/Barry/KD and a better version of Wilt. Lakers 1st team would be a more interesting matchup for the Ws 1st team. 

 

What if you put C Webb at the 4?

[ztejas 43558]

2 minutes ago, Brothahorn said:

What if you put C Webb at the 4?

Could be interesting. I think I take peak Draymond over rookie Weber though.

[SilasCoade 2622]

33 minutes ago, ztejas said:

You can definitely make the case peak Manu was a top 5 player in the league. He was at least top 10. 

[ztejas 43558]

10 minutes ago, Llogg said:

Not saying it's some consensus postion - just that the argument is there. You can start here if you're interested in breaking it down https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2005_advanced.html

I would say from 2005 to 2008 he put together a top 10 4 season stretch, and at times during that span he was better than all but a handful of guys. 

[Mitch Cumsteen 18598]

Again, I really don't want to do this. Manu had more balls in his little finger than most players have balls in their balls. I don't even know what that means, but his maybe being a top 10 player in the league isn't the same as finishing second behind absolute prime Bill Walton and ahead of 30 year old Kareem in MVP voting. 

[ztejas 43558]

1 minute ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

Again, I really don't want to do this. Manu had more balls in his little finger than most players have balls in their balls. I don't even know what that means, but his maybe being a top 10 player in the league isn't the same as finishing second behind absolute prime Bill Walton and ahead of 30 year old Kareem in MVP voting. 

I'm not saying he was better than Gervin. Was just splitting hairs on one aspect of your comparison.

[HookEm 2468]

I don't even like Houston, but their all-time team would give any team a run for their money.  So much scoring, plus the big bodies to go up against anybody.  Nobody has even mentioned Clyde Drexler or Yao Ming. 

I would trot out this team starting 3 MVPs.  Hakeem would force teams to double him down low because NOBODY is stopping him one on one, including Shaq or Kareem.  Plus you have Harden, possibly the best scorer in NBA history with Moses Malone, the best offensive rebounder of all-time chasing down the Harden 3s.  McGrady and Drexler also command respect and can take anybody off the dribble.

Then you have a bench packed with Hall-of-Fame talent with additional scoring and defense.

PG - James Harden (2019) - 30 / 5 / 8.8 / 1.8 / 0.7 - MVP

SG - Clyde Drexler (1995) - 21 / 7 / 4.4 /  1.8 / 0.7 - 3rd Team All-NBA  (NBA Champ)

SF - Tracy McGrady (2006) - 25 / 6 / 4.8 / 1.3 / 0.9 - 2nd Team All-NBA

PF - Hakeem Olajuwon (1990) - 27 / 112/ 3.6 / 1.6 / 3.7 - MVP 

C - Moses Malone (1982) - 31 / 15 / 1.8 / 0.9 / 1.5 - MVP

Bench

PG - Russell Westbrook (2020) - 27 / 8 / 7 / 1.9 / 0.5 - 3rd Team All-NBA

SG - Steve Francis (2003) - 21 / 6 / 6 / 1.7 / 0.5 - All-Star

SF - Rudy Tomjanovich (1974) - 25 / 9  / 3.1 / 1.1 / 0.8 - All-Star

PF - Ralph Samson (1985) - 22 / 10 / 2.7 / 1.0 / 2.0 - 2nd Team All-NBA 

C - Yao Ming (2007) - 25 / 9 / 2 / 0.4 / 2.0 - 2nd Team All-NBA

[MNLonghornFUKM 8823]

I don't even like Houston, but their all-time team would give any team a run for their money.  So much scoring, plus the big bodies to go up against anybody.  Nobody has even mentioned Clyde Drexler or Yao Ming. 
I would trot out this team starting 3 MVPs.  Hakeem would force teams to double him down low because NOBODY is stopping him one on one, including Shaq or Kareem.  Plus you have Harden, possibly the best scorer in NBA history with Moses Malone, the best offensive rebounder of all-time chasing down the Harden 3s.  McGrady and Drexler also command respect and can take anybody off the dribble.
Then you have a bench packed with Hall-of-Fame talent with additional scoring and defense.
PG - James Harden (2019) - 30 / 5 / 8.8 / 1.8 / 0.7 - MVP
SG - Clyde Drexler (1995) - 21 / 7 / 4.4 /  1.8 / 0.7 - 3rd Team All-NBA  (NBA Champ)
SF - Tracy McGrady (2006) - 25 / 6 / 4.8 / 1.3 / 0.9 - 2nd Team All-NBA
PF - Hakeem Olajuwon (1990) - 27 / 112/ 3.6 / 1.6 / 3.7 - MVP 
C - Moses Malone (1982) - 31 / 15 / 1.8 / 0.9 / 1.5 - MVP
Bench
PG - Russell Westbrook (2020) - 27 / 8 / 7 / 1.9 / 0.5 - 3rd Team All-NBA
SG - Steve Francis (2003) - 21 / 6 / 6 / 1.7 / 0.5 - All-Star
SF - Rudy Tomjanovich (1974) - 25 / 9  / 3.1 / 1.1 / 0.8 - All-Star
PF - Ralph Samson (1985) - 22 / 10 / 2.7 / 1.0 / 2.0 - 2nd Team All-NBA 
C - Yao Ming (2007) - 25 / 9 / 2 / 0.4 / 2.0 - 2nd Team All-NBA

No Matt Maloney or Matt Bullard??

[d2o 1602]

7 hours ago, MNLonghornFUKM said:

No Matt Maloney or Matt Bullard??

Nope but also no Calvin Murphy or Elvin Hayes either