2019-2020 NBA Season Thread

[gsoda3 3262]

20 minutes ago, conVINCEd said:

He played with Harden and CP3 for like 5 minutes.

oh come on.  he had a good view of them from the bench.

[conVINCEd 21469]

16 minutes ago, gsoda3 said:

oh come on.  he had a good view of them from the bench.

Was he even on the bench?  I vaguely remember him getting sent home rather quickly that season.

[BradInATX 9208]

56 minutes ago, Chad said:

Haha, Amare and Marcus wouldn't even crack the Top 5 of players he's teamed with. Melo played with the likes of CP3, Paul George, Russ, AI and Harden.

 

"In his prime"
 

Either way, the point of this post is that every player says that about their current teammates. He's not going to say "well, Dame is pretty good but he's no James Harden" or whatever. So holding up Melo's comments as if its some sort of confirmation that Dame is an HOF level player is silly. And I like Lillard, but the hype train that the last three weeks have generated is getting out of control.

Edited August 17, 2020 by BradInATX

[Chad 1728]

13 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

 

"In his prime"
 

Either way, the point of this post is that every player says that about their current teammates. He's not going to say "well, Dame is pretty good but he's no James Harden" or whatever. So holding up Melo's comments as if its some sort of confirmation that Dame is an HOF level player is silly. And I like Lillard, but the hype train that the last three weeks have generated is getting out of control.

A player doesn't have to be in his prime to recognize talent. I can understand the bias argument because they're presently team mates. Dame has led Portland to 7 consecutive playoff appearances with some rather lackluster rosters along the way. They struggled this season, but caught fire at the right time and kept the streak alive. You reckon if Dame was Golden State's PG they still win numerous championships? Portland hasn't exactly had ideal rosters outside of their back court.

 

[hobbes2702 13045]

4 minutes ago, Chad said:

A player doesn't have to be in his prime to recognize talent. I can understand the bias argument because they're presently team mates. Dame has led Portland to 7 consecutive playoff appearances with some rather lackluster rosters along the way. They struggled this season, but caught fire at the right time and kept the streak alive. You reckon if Dame was Golden State's PG they still win numerous championships? Portland hasn't exactly had ideal rosters outside of their back court.

 

I don’t think GSW wins those titles if you switch Dame and Steph. Dame has never shot 40% from three until this season. Steph has never shot below 41%. Steph’s “gravity” and consistency from outside is what allowed the GSW teams to dominate. Dame is incredible, he’s an elite player, but he’s not Steph.

[Brothahorn 10087]

Or maybe Dame's the best because he won't let Melo be the team cancer, that he has been.

[BradInATX 9208]

13 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

I don’t think GSW wins those titles if you switch Dame and Steph.

Of course not. They probably wouldn't have won a single one.

There are a lot of people who I guess lack the basketball knowledge to really understand how important Steph Curry has been to his team and the game of basketball over the last 6-7 years. Even if he comes back from injury and is never at the same peak, his run is probably second to Jordan's nine-year, six title run in terms of highest career peak. Lillard is a very good player (and I like Dame a lot, more than I do Curry). But he doesn't change the entire floor like Curry does. There is literally nothing that Lillard does better than Curry. Even on the defensive end, Curry is the better player.

The two players should never even be compared. Lillard is a 2nd-tier star within any given season and Curry is a top ten player of all time.

[hobbes2702 13045]

11 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

Of course not. They probably wouldn't have won a single one.

There are a lot of people who I guess lack the basketball knowledge to really understand how important Steph Curry has been to his team and the game of basketball over the last 6-7 years. Even if he comes back from injury and is never at the same peak, his run is probably second to Jordan's nine-year, six title run in terms of highest career peak. Lillard is a very good player (and I like Dame a lot, more than I do Curry). But he doesn't change the entire floor like Curry does. There is literally nothing that Lillard does better than Curry. Even on the defensive end, Curry is the better player.

The two players should never even be compared. Lillard is a 2nd-tier star within any given season and Curry is a top ten player of all time.

That’s a bit Hyperbolic. Dame is a better passer than Steph and imo is more athletic. He is also an incredible at the rim finisher. Dame is one of the ten best guys in the league. Steph is not one of the ten best guys ever but he is better than Dame by a good bit.

[BradInATX 9208]

4 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

That’s a bit Hyperbolic. Dame is a better passer than Steph and imo is more athletic. He is also an incredible at the rim finisher. Dame is one of the ten best guys in the league. Steph is not one of the ten best guys ever but he is better than Dame by a good bit.

 

It's not hyperbolic at all. There are a (single) handful of players who changed the game of basketball. Curry is one of those four or five. He is easily top ten. Without Steph Curry there would be no Damian Lillard.

I actually have him higher (I think he's top 3-4 all time if we're talking pure peak) but I'm not looking for that debate so I didn't go there. Dame is not a better passer than Steph either by the eyeball test or statistically. Curry is a better finisher than Dame at the rim too. He is unreal for his size. 

I don't even think I'd call Lillard more athletic. He's got better size, but pure athleticism it's pretty close.

This is all crazy talk. You people are taking crazy pills.

Edited August 17, 2020 by BradInATX

[d2o 1602]

2 hours ago, Chad said:

Haha, Amare and Marcus wouldn't even crack the Top 5 of players he's teamed with. Melo played with the likes of CP3, Paul George, Russ, AI and Harden.

He played all of what 10 games with CP3 and Harden

[hobbes2702 13045]

Im not disagreeing that Steph changed the game forever but that doesn’t by itself mean he’s one of the ten best guys ever. I’m not saying he’s far from it but I just think you’ve got him a bit too high especially given his defensive limitations.

The stats were posted up thread about the passing and while I think Steph’s vision is way underrated I don’t think I’d say he’s better than Dame.

Steph’s at the rim finishing numbers are def better than dame purely on a percentage but I think Dame is a better traffic finisher pretty easily.

@BradInATX

Edited August 17, 2020 by hobbes2702

[aggie08 21504]

Damn, I thought that I was this board's Steph homer. Brad's got me beat.

[BradInATX 9208]

5 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

Im not disagreeing that Steph changed the game forever but that doesn’t by itself mean he’s one of the ten best guys ever. I’m not saying he’s far from it but I just think you’ve got him a bit too high especially given his defensive limitations.

The stats were posted up thread about the passing and while I think Steph’s vision is way underrated I don’t think I’d say he’s better than Dame.

Steph’s at the rim finishing numbers are def better than dame purely on a percentage but I think Dame is a better traffic finisher pretty easily.

 

Right after I posted I did a comparison of ages 27-29 for Steph and Lillard because I thought that was pretty fair. Basically Lillard's last three years which mirror Steph's rise in that age pretty well. In fact, it's interesting that they both seemed to make a jump in effectiveness around the same age. Kinda cool. Late bloomers. 

Anyway, Steph had a bit higher assist percentage, but Lillard had a lower turnover percentage. So I'd probably say they're even. All I was saying in my original post is that Lillard isn't better than Steph at any single thing. I think it's probably fair to say they're very similar in a couple of areas (passing, pure athleticism, etc.). But I think as a pure package, they're not very close. That's not shitting on Lillard, who is a fantastic player. I just have Curry higher than most. At least on a board that's comprised mostly of fans of KD and Western conference teams who naturally tilt anti-Steph/California, myself included.

Edited August 17, 2020 by BradInATX

[CBT 1282]

god damn, Mitchell is cooking

edit: then he gets an 8 second call, wow

Edited August 17, 2020 by CBT

[BradInATX 9208]

2 minutes ago, CBT said:

god damn, Mitchell is cooking

edit: then he gets an 8 second call, wow

I've got this game on mute in my office. just started paying attention in the last five or so minutes. has been incredible

Edited August 17, 2020 by BradInATX

[CBT 1282]

Murray ain't scared.

[BradInATX 9208]

Murray and Mitchell dueling hard

[Patrick Bateman 3916]

Murray vs Mitchell is quite a sight to see right now..... Be a shame to waste Mitchell's game for Utah.

[d2o 1602]

This is one helluva start to the playoffs.   Murray and Mitchell trading HUGE shots

[d2o 1602]

3 minutes ago, CBT said:

god damn, Mitchell is cooking

edit: then he gets an 8 second call, wow

That 8 sec call was HUGE!   They could have gone up 6-7

[BradInATX 9208]

More players need to do what Mitchell just did in a huge need-a-basket situation and drive hard to the basket. Finish hard or get fouled. Too many late-game fadeaway jumpers these days.

[CBT 1282]

free basketball!

[ztejas 43467]

Mitchell had 51 in regulation. The playoff record is 63.

How do we feel about counting a record like that considering the circumstances, if he breaks it?

[Michael Knight 12986]

4 minutes ago, ztejas said:

Mitchell had 51 in regulation. The playoff record is 63.

How do we feel about counting a record like that considering the circumstances, if he breaks it?

He's definitely got the record for points per person in the crowd

[ztejas 43467]

Eh. He's not even going to get close.

Still think it's an interesting hypothetical.

[BradInATX 9208]

Utah  just couldn't handle the altitude on Denver's home floor

[Michael Knight 12986]

1 minute ago, BradInATX said:

Utah  just couldn't handle the altitude on Denver's home floor

they couldn't handle Murray heating up

[aggie08 21504]

27 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

The stats were posted up thread about the passing and while I think Steph’s vision is way underrated I don’t think I’d say he’s better than Dame.

ztejas posted assist points created, which I don't think is necessarily the best way to judge passing and vision. Russ has been at or near the top of that for how long? Ish Smith, Tyreke Evans, and Jarrett Jack were also ahead of Steph in his unanimous MVP year. By then, they had fully embraced Kerr's no dominant ball-handler, Draymond as a point forward offense. Apples and oranges. It just wasn't worth arguing since I'd be coming at it from a subjective, biased perspective.

I did absolutely agree that Dame is tighter with the basketball, and that's a pretty damn important point guard trait. Who cares if Steph makes "better" passes if he's also due for a couple of trying to be too cute turnovers every game? A certain ill-advised behind the back pass in Game 7 of the Finals comes to mind. Dame is a decent margin better than Steph in career assist:turnover, so I don't have a problem with someone leaving towards Dame. I was hyperbolic when I said that Steph is "easily" a better passer. Both fall under 2:1 in the playoffs though.

Edited August 17, 2020 by aggie08

[d2o 1602]

15 minutes ago, ztejas said:

Mitchell had 51 in regulation. The playoff record is 63.

How do we feel about counting a record like that considering the circumstances, if he breaks it?

Its just a basketball game at this point.   NO caveats as far as I am concerned

[washparkhorn 9939]

Mitchell worked his ass off. Utah's short bench was a factor. Den/Uta is a rivalry. And they are residing near each other in the bubble. Should be a fun series.

 

[conVINCEd 21469]

3 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

Mitchell worked his ass off. Utah's short bench was a factor. Den/Uta is a rivalry. And they are residing near each other in the bubble. Should be a fun series.

 

That’s one aspect of the bubble I hadn’t considered.   If shit gets heated during a game a lot of times you are only an elevator ride away from continuing it at the hotel. 

[ztejas 43467]

15 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

ztejas posted assist points created, which I don't think is necessarily the best way to judge passing and vision. Russ has been at or near the top of that for how long? Ish Smith, Tyreke Evans, and Jarrett Jack were also ahead of Steph in his unanimous MVP year.

I didn't judge it in a vacuum - I made the point that Dame both turns the ball over less and creates more points off of assists than Steph (because someone brought up hockey assists and assists on 3s - both of which it accounts for). If you want to use it as a tell-all metric to paint some strange pro-Steph strawman then go ahead.

Of course Russ is going to be at the top of that list - he led the league in assists 2 of the past 4 years. He also turns the ball over significantly more than Steph and Dame.

Tyreke Evans and Jarrett Jack played around 30 games that season so not sure why you are looking at their numbers. On review it looks like Ish Smith had a decent season passing the rock, which is basically what Steph and Dame do every year. We aren't talking about Chris Paul or Rondo or Steve Nash here. Not even close. 

Draymond is probably a better passer than Steph. KD was on a similar level this past season. Steph is special because of his scoring at the point guard spot combined with very low turnovers. He's also a plus passer and good rebounder and in the past has had good steals numbers.

I just would never highlight Steph's passing to try and make the case for his greatness.

[ztejas 43467]

25 minutes ago, d2o said:

Its just a basketball game at this point.   NO caveats as far as I am concerned

I mean it's an atypical environment that favors shooters. Just look at how many points teams are scoring every night. I would honestly put it in the same category as the season where they shortened the 3P line. 

Hasn't Dame busted 60 twice already in the bubble?

Edited August 17, 2020 by ztejas

[d2o 1602]

7 minutes ago, ztejas said:

I mean it's an atypical environment that favors shooters. Just look at how many points teams are scoring every night. I would honestly put it in the same category as the season where they shortened the 3P line. 

Hasn't Dame busted 60 twice already in the bubble?

yeah and now that we are 15-20 yrs away from that how many times is that actually mentioned?

 

I do think there are three factors contributing to the high scoring games.   

1) the sight lines are better in those small gyms

2) guys are getting more rest not being able to go out and party 

3) not having fans yelling at them has them more relaxed

 

Even still its just basketball IMO and I'm not looking at anything any differently

[Brothahorn 10087]

I don't see anyone except the Clippers competing with Toronto, when they are playing like this. Yes, I know it's the Nets.

 

[ztejas 43467]

3 minutes ago, d2o said:

yeah and now that we are 15-20 yrs away from that how many times is that actually mentioned?

It doesn't come up as much anymore because 3 point records are getting shattered across the board. But when you had/have guys from 1996 (I beleive it was 96 - either 96 or 95) come up on single season 3s made leaderboards or % leaderboards it usually gets mentioned as an asterisk. 

5 minutes ago, d2o said:

Even still its just basketball IMO and I'm not looking at anything any differently

It's your prerogative. There's not a right or wrong way to look at it - just like it's pretty difficult to compare across eras. I just think it's an interesting discussion when it comes to the numbers that some of these guys have already or will be putting up. The more crazy scoring games we see I think people will be more and more inclined to take the numbers that we see in the bubble with a grain of salt.

Now, I don't think that there is any way to claim that the best team in the bubble isn't going to be the team that wins it all - or say that they are undeserving. It's not like whatever advantages there might be don't apply to both teams on the court.  I do think that the best team in June under normal circumstances might have been different than the best team in October, but they're doing the best they can to award a fair championship.

[aggie08 21504]

So maybe Kawhi wasn't the true lynchpin to their success? The secret ingredient is not having DeMar DeRozan on your roster?

[Kermit 3156]

Just now, aggie08 said:

So maybe Kawhi wasn't the true lynchpin to their success? The secret ingredient is not having DeMar DeRozan on your roster?

Goddamnit.

[ztejas 43467]

6 minutes ago, Brothahorn said:

Yes, I know it's the Nets.

I think you should give that a little bit more weight. How much playoff experience do the Nets rotation players have collectively? Is it even over 1,000 minutes?

[ztejas 43467]

2 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

So maybe Kawhi wasn't the true lynchpin to their success? The secret ingredient is not having DeMar DeRozan on your roster?

Lol you asshole. We missed the playoffs, no need to twist the knife further.

(And I know you're kind of kidding but this Raptors roster is very different than the 2018 one minus DeMar - they also have a different coach)

[ztejas 43467]

1 hour ago, BradInATX said:

This is all crazy talk. You people are taking crazy pills.

You just claimed Steph had a top 4 peak of all time (I'm going to pretend I didn't read the 3 you put). I'm really curious who you are bumping from your top 4 for Steph. He is not above LeBron or MJ. We aren't going there. 

So you have to bump one of either Magic or Kareem. I'll assume you would try and make a case that Steph's peak is greater than Magic's. I don't agree, but I'll let you have it. I'll even let Kareem slide because he played in a different era - but I think that notion is pretty absurd as well.

Hakeem? Bird? Duncan? Shaq?

I put all of them - peak or career - don't care - above Steph easily. The only one that I think is close is Duncan.

Two year stretch I do not put Steph above '09-'10 Kobe but some probably disagree there. 

Frankly I'm not sure I put Steph's peak above KD's, but the majority might disagree with me. Does KD have one of the 4 greatest peaks in NBA History? No. 

I mean you're talking about a player that:

- Doesn't have a Finals MVP

- Won one championship as the clear-cut best player on his team, in a very weak year when it comes to competition.

- Has never played anything close to resembling elite defense.

- Plays significantly worse in the playoffs (outside of 2017 which was a fucking joke - we don't need to go into that do we?)

Top 10 all time - kind of a huge stretch but I guess I could listen to it.

Top 4 peak ever? I'm not sure you have half a leg to stand on. 

[BradInATX 9208]

7 minutes ago, ztejas said:

You just claimed Steph had a top 4 peak of all time (I'm going to pretend I didn't read the 3 you put). I'm really curious who you are bumping from your top 4 for Steph. He is not above LeBron or MJ. We aren't going there. 

So you have to bump one of either Magic or Kareem. I'll assume you would try and make a case that Steph's peak is greater than Magic's. I don't agree, but I'll let you have it. I'll even let Kareem slide because he played in a different era - but I think that notion is pretty absurd as well.

Hakeem? Bird? Duncan? Shaq?

I put all of them - peak or career - don't care - above Steph easily. The only one that I think is close is Duncan.

Two year stretch I do not put Steph above '09-'10 Kobe but some probably disagree there. 

Frankly I'm not sure I put Steph's peak above KD's, but the majority might disagree with me. Does KD have one of the 4 greatest peaks in NBA History? No. 

I mean you're talking about a player that:

- Doesn't have a Finals MVP

- Won one championship as the clear-cut best player on his team, in a very weak year when it comes to competition.

- Has never played anything close to resembling elite defense.

- Plays significantly worse in the playoffs (outside of 2017 which was a fucking joke - we don't need to go into that do we?)

Top 10 all time - kind of a huge stretch but I guess I could listen to it.

Top 4 peak ever? I'm not sure you have half a leg to stand on. 

 

Steph was as good or better at his peak than LeBron was. Better than Duncan (I'm a Spurs fan, so this one hurts). Easily better than Hakeem. Shaq, that's tougher. Remember we're talking purely peak here, no longevity awards, so that changes the game a bit. For example, Duncan will go down as a better player than Shaq, but peak Shaq was better than peak Duncan. 

Pure peak, in my lifetime (at least since I've been cognizant of what's happening), it's Jordan, then Shaq/Curry. I don't know or care about anything before that because nobody before Jordan was as good at basketball as any of the top 10 players since 1996.

Again, I wasn't really looking for the "where does Steph rank" argument which is why I didn't lead with the top 3-4 and just put him top ten. But your bullet points, minus the elite defense one, are goofy and argumentative for the sake of argumentative. Everyone knows who made that GSW team tick and who the best player every single year was/is. Steph Curry didn't tuck tail and run to play in OKC to coattail championships.

Edited August 17, 2020 by BradInATX

[Brothahorn 10087]

59 minutes ago, Brothahorn said:

I don't see anyone except the Clippers competing with Toronto, when they are playing like this. Yes, I know it's the Nets.

 

Jinxed

[d2o 1602]

44 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

 

Steph was as good or better at his peak than LeBron was. Better than Duncan (I'm a Spurs fan, so this one hurts). Easily better than Hakeem. Shaq, that's tougher. Remember we're talking purely peak here, no longevity awards, so that changes the game a bit. For example, Duncan will go down as a better player than Shaq, but peak Shaq was better than peak Duncan. 

Pure peak, in my lifetime (at least since I've been cognizant of what's happening), it's Jordan, then Shaq/Curry. I don't know or care about anything before that because nobody before Jordan was as good at basketball as any of the top 10 players since 1996.

Again, I wasn't really looking for the "where does Steph rank" argument which is why I didn't lead with the top 3-4 and just put him top ten. But your bullet points, minus the elite defense one, are goofy and argumentative for the sake of argumentative. Everyone knows who made that GSW team tick and who the best player every single year was/is. Steph Curry didn't tuck tail and run to play in OKC to coattail championships.

Edited August 17, 2020 by d2o

[ztejas 43467]

1 hour ago, BradInATX said:

Steph was as good or better at his peak than LeBron was.

I'm out. Have fun in your fantasy world. Maybe I'll read the rest of what you wrote later.

[conVINCEd 21469]

1 hour ago, BradInATX said:

 

Steph was as good or better at his peak than LeBron was. Better than Duncan (I'm a Spurs fan, so this one hurts). Easily better than Hakeem. Shaq, that's tougher. Remember we're talking purely peak here, no longevity awards, so that changes the game a bit. For example, Duncan will go down as a better player than Shaq, but peak Shaq was better than peak Duncan. 

Pure peak, in my lifetime (at least since I've been cognizant of what's happening), it's Jordan, then Shaq/Curry. I don't know or care about anything before that because nobody before Jordan was as good at basketball as any of the top 10 players since 1996.

Again, I wasn't really looking for the "where does Steph rank" argument which is why I didn't lead with the top 3-4 and just put him top ten. But your bullet points, minus the elite defense one, are goofy and argumentative for the sake of argumentative. Everyone knows who made that GSW team tick and who the best player every single year was/is. Steph Curry didn't tuck tail and run to play in OKC to coattail championships.

Is your name Del?

[washparkhorn 9939]

2 hours ago, conVINCEd said:

That’s one aspect of the bubble I hadn’t considered.   If shit gets heated during a game a lot of times you are only an elevator ride away from continuing it at the hotel. 

Jamal Murray and Donavan Mitchell running into each other after the game . . . 
 

https://instagram.com/stories/jmglitxh27/2378005229955675287?utm_source=ig_story_item_share&igshid=tve6cqq0bl9d

No instagram? - Both guys having fun.

[aggie08 21504]

Steph's 2015-2016 season is the greatest shooting season in the history of the sport by a country mile...

...but I'm still not sure that I'd put it above any of LeBron's top 3 or so seasons. And that's just talking offense.

I'm a Steph apologist and have no problem ranking him Top 20 all-time and the 2nd best point guard ever if he retired tomorrow--on top of being one of the 3 or 4 guys to truly revolutionize the sport*--but anything beyond that is crazy. It's criminal that the basketball community didn't give him the Finals MVP in 2016. And, apart from a disastrous three game stretch in the following year's Finals, he's been pretty damn good in the playoffs (slight drops across the board, but nothing out of the ordinary, especially for sub 6'5" players when the games get a bit more physical). But he's not even in the same stratosphere as Jordan, LeBron, Shaq, etc. as a postseason performer. That matters.

*I don't put much stock in this because it's much easier for guards to be revolutionary. Steph can revolutionize the sport because everyone can get better at shooting. The same can't be said about LeBron, Wilt, Shaq, Kareem, etc. because you can't just tell a kid to be a 7 foot tall super freak.

[youdunnf'dup 2147]

Never change, Kawhi.

 

[BradInATX 9208]

He's almost as autistic as someone who thinks that Dame Lillard is comparable to Steph Curry