2019-2020 NBA Season Thread

[aggie08 21434]

3 minutes ago, Drew said:

They gotta blow it up right? Maybe trade everyone for picks/assets

This is way too many games where harden has either shrunk late or failed to show up at all in pivotal games. Russ just doesn’t have it.

I’m sure the offensive system is part of the problem but man they really don’t have a way out as currently constructed

With their contracts, the only way to blow it up means trading Harden. Pretty tough to talk yourself into dealing a guaranteed 50+ wins and top 5 offense (they were 6th by a tenth of a point this year) unless you're getting a king's ransom.

[hobbes2702 12833]

3 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

With their contracts, the only way to blow it up means trading Harden. Pretty tough to talk yourself into dealing a guaranteed 50+ wins and top 5 offense (they were 6th by a tenth of a point this year) unless you're getting a king's ransom.

Yea they can’t really blow it up. There’s just not much reason to even consider trading Harden. I mean what could you get in return that’s better? 

[aggie08 21434]

Just now, hobbes2702 said:

Yea they can’t really blow it up. There’s just not much reason to even consider trading Harden. I mean what could you get in return that’s better? 

Exactly. I'm not even sure what the market is for Harden right now. And I don't mean that as a knock. But if you trade for Harden, you're trading for the entire James Harden experience. It's not like he's going to seamlessly fit in as the best player in a ball movement, motion offense. He's going to want to do things his way, as any legitimate offensive superstar would. How many teams would completely buy into that philosophy to get a top 5ish player?

Do the Knicks have anything worthwhile to offer?

[hobbes2702 12833]

Just now, aggie08 said:

Exactly. I'm not even sure what the market is for Harden right now. And I don't mean that as a knock. But if you trade for Harden, you're trading for the entire James Harden experience. It's not like he's going to seamlessly fit in as the best player in a ball movement, motion offense. He's going to want to do things his way, as any legitimate offensive superstar would. How many teams would completely buy into that philosophy to get a top 5ish player?

Do the Knicks have anything worthwhile to offer?

I mean Simmons for Harden is the only trade I could even seen anyone considering and that’s a downgrade for the Rockets.

[ztejas 43266]

10 minutes ago, Vic Mackey said:

14 minutes ago, Drew said:

They gotta blow it up right? Maybe trade everyone for picks/assets

This is way too many games where harden has either shrunk late or failed to show up at all in pivotal games. Russ just doesn’t have it.

I’m sure the offensive system is part of the problem but man they really don’t have a way out as currently constructed

Read more  

I think they just go ahead and trade for Lillard. Bring in another guy who won't ever win anything to go with Harden.

After the 2012 Finals I thought that it would be 5 years before a team without LeBron or Durant on it won the title. That wasn't true, obviously, but if you add Kawhi to the mix the only team without one of those three to win since then was GS in 2015. And that year, Durant was hurt and LeBron was missing his 2 best teammates in the Finals. And it will be the case again this year unless something crazy happens.

It's so fucking hard to win in the NBA without a guy who is top 3 or 4 players of his generation. Theres no other sport where it's as important to have the best player out there on your team. 

[ocugolf 1211]

Morey ball is done. Not many assets to play with. MDA is gone. Just hard to see any positives right now.  

[aggie08 21434]

12 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

I mean Simmons for Harden is the only trade I could even seen anyone considering and that’s a downgrade for the Rockets.

A HUGE downgrade. I've said this before, but Houston just has to hope that Harden is the NBA's Peyton Manning. Sure, not the most reliable in the playoffs, but dominant enough in the regular season to keep putting themselves in position that a lucky break here or there might result in one magical run.

[BradInATX 9208]

9 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

A HUGE downgrade. I've said this before, but Houston just has to hope that Harden is the NBA's Peyton Manning. Sure, not the most reliable in the playoffs, but dominant enough in the regular season to keep putting themselves in position that a lucky break here or there might result in one magical run.

He's more like Philip Rivers than Manning. He's a guy that has fallen short countless times with championship-caliber talent around him. Puts up gaudy stats year after year. Has a good portion of fans of his sport believing that he's an upper-echelon player, but when his career is over, he will absolutely not be remembered as the same caliber as the real alphas from this generation like LeBron, Kawhi, Curry, Durant, etc.

There is a lot of chatter on here that Giannis is a flawed player because he keeps disappointing in the playoffs. Harden has an even more illustrious career of failure. By a lot.

Dirk was the Peyton Manning of your analogy. Manning made it to three Super Bowls. Harden has never even made the Finals.

Edited September 11, 2020 by BradInATX

[conVINCEd 21468]

John Wall is available.

[staboner 4958]

I'd trade harden, or at least try. he isn't going to get it done and the complete sell out of the system to accent him is failing. and the lakers are showing everyone the roadmap to frustrate him. which is obv to anyone with a fucking pulse the last 5ish years. team just don't have that focus and energy in the regular season and thus his stats. get him into the playoffs with heightened defensive intensity and less fouls being called = now he is just a good player who can get hot here and there. that ain't enough to win a chip

[ztejas 43266]

1 hour ago, aggie08 said:

A HUGE downgrade. I've said this before, but Houston just has to hope that Harden is the NBA's Peyton Manning. Sure, not the most reliable in the playoffs, but dominant enough in the regular season to keep putting themselves in position that a lucky break here or there might result in one magical run.

2018 was his best chance. Or 2015 lol.

1 hour ago, BradInATX said:

Harden has never even made the Finals.

He has, but not as the best player on his team.

[Wulaw Horn 18980]

3 hours ago, BradInATX said:

He's more like Philip Rivers than Manning. He's a guy that has fallen short countless times with championship-caliber talent around him. Puts up gaudy stats year after year. Has a good portion of fans of his sport believing that he's an upper-echelon player, but when his career is over, he will absolutely not be remembered as the same caliber as the real alphas from this generation like LeBron, Kawhi, Curry, Durant, etc.

There is a lot of chatter on here that Giannis is a flawed player because he keeps disappointing in the playoffs. Harden has an even more illustrious career of failure. By a lot.

Dirk was the Peyton Manning of your analogy. Manning made it to three Super Bowls. Harden has never even made the Finals.

I mean- he made the finals in 2012 or whenever with OKC. Granted he was the third banana but he was also fucking awesome in the WCF when they beat the spurs and OKC would never have won that series without him. He was then fucking terrible in the finals and the reason okc didn’t win that series. KD was awesome. Russ was pretty good. Harden was hammered dog shit and though they lost 4-1 every game was pretty close until the close out game. 

Edited September 11, 2020 by Wulaw Horn

[d2o 1602]

I know that the Lakers blitzed Harden often but did it seem to anyone else like he was purposely not shooting?   It seems like he passed up a A LOT of shots he would have normally taken.   The guy just doesn't have it when they need him most and its been proven over and over again now.

Edited September 11, 2020 by d2o

[aggie08 21434]

21 minutes ago, d2o said:

I know that the Lakers blitzed Harden often but did it seem to anyone else like he was purposely not shooting?   It seems like he passed up a A LOT of shots he would have normally taken.   The guy just doesn't have it when they need him most and its been proven over and over again now.

His third 2 for 11 night in a big game in his postseason career.

At least go down shooting.

[conVINCEd 21468]

If Morey and DA want to keep their jobs, they need to smuggle some strippers into the bubble to help Harden get his mojo back.

[BradInATX 9208]

9 hours ago, ztejas said:

He has, but not as the best player on his team.

 

7 hours ago, Wulaw Horn said:

I mean- he made the finals in 2012 or whenever with OKC. Granted he was the third banana but he was also fucking awesome in the WCF when they beat the spurs and OKC would never have won that series without him. He was then fucking terrible in the finals and the reason okc didn’t win that series. KD was awesome. Russ was pretty good. Harden was hammered dog shit and though they lost 4-1 every game was pretty close until the close out game. 

 

Totally forgot about 2012. That Spurs/Thunder series was one of the most poorly officiated series' I can remember. Still pisses me off.

[Wulaw Horn 18980]

3 hours ago, aggie08 said:

His third 2 for 11 night in a big game in his postseason career.

At least go down shooting.

He’s a super star. He’s awesome. He’s an offensive savant. He’s also the lamest super hero ever. He’s aqua man. Yeah- he’s a super hero. But he ain’t cool. If you get an aqua man lunch box you are like- eh thanks. I guess Batman, Spider-Man and super man were sold out- eh? 

[d2o 1602]

 

[BradInATX 9208]

49 minutes ago, d2o said:

 

 

Damn. It's sometimes hard to put Harden's flaws into words, but this is a pretty good stab at it. Crazy to have Kobe in there too, because having an off night never stopped him from continuing to jack shots up.

[ztejas 43266]

4 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

 

Damn. It's sometimes hard to put Harden's flaws into words, but this is a pretty good stab at it. Crazy to have Kobe in there too, because having an off night never stopped him from continuing to jack shots up.

20% is really fucking bad. You can go 5 of 21 shooting and not be below 20%. 

[Mitch Cumsteen 18523]

The Rockets... Jesus, what a mess. It's not just a matter of them not having draft assets or cap space. That roster is constructed entirely around D'Antoni's system and Morey's analytics. As much as I respect their commitment to their vision and doubling down on small ball, they rolled the dice and crapped out (note: mixed craps/blackjack metaphor). The only real value on their roster, outside of Harden is PJ Tucker on the books for one more year at $8 million and I guess Covington can still be considered an asset at $12.5 million for two more years. Westbrook's contract is untradeable unless you are a big John Wall fan and Eric Gordon's contract is rather terrible too. 

How does another coach come in and play with that roster? Or how does a GM start to re-shape it? When Phoenix cut ties with Mike D they brought in Shaq, in what was an abject failure. But they still had the Nash/Stoudemire combo which at least gave them a viable big to play around for a couple of years. Houston is shortest team in the history of the league.  They literally have zero viable bigs on their roster. I don't know how you fix that. 

[BradInATX 9208]

The Rockets... Jesus, what a mess. It's not just a matter of them not having draft assets or cap space. That roster is constructed entirely around D'Antoni's system and Morey's analytics. As much as I respect their commitment to their vision and doubling down on small ball, they rolled the dice and crapped out (note: mixed craps/blackjack metaphor). The only real value on their roster, outside of Harden is PJ Tucker on the books for one more year at $8 million and I guess Covington can still be considered an asset at $12.5 million for two more years. Westbrook's contract is untradeable unless you are a big John Wall fan and Eric Gordon's contract is rather terrible too.  How does another coach come in and play with that roster? Or how does a GM start to re-shape it? When Phoenix cut ties with Mike D they brought in Shaq, in what was an abject failure. But they still had the Nash/Stoudemire combo which at least gave them a viable big to play around for a couple of years. Houston is shortest team in the history of the league.  They literally have zero viable bigs on their roster. I don't know how you fix that.   

 

   

 

Purely hot take fantasy land here... Harden for Embiid. Embiid and Westbrook would probably work well together and maybe a change of scenery will make him stop being a soft chump. Although I have no idea how Philly would even begin to make Harden and Simmons work. They'd need to move Ben for a non ball dominant perimeter defender who can score when Harden is doubled. Someone like Jimmy Butler. Lulz both for irony and the fact that Butler would murder Harden in his sleep within weeks of being his teammate.

I'm drinking already FYI

 

 

 

[Brothahorn 10085]

18 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

   

 

Purely hot take fantasy land here... Harden for Embiid. Embiid and Westbrook would probably work well together and maybe a change of scenery will make him stop being a soft chump. Although I have no idea how Philly would even begin to make Harden and Simmons work. They'd need to move Ben for a non ball dominant perimeter defender who can score when Harden is doubled. Someone like Jimmy Butler. Lulz both for irony and the fact that Butler would murder Harden in his sleep within weeks of being his teammate.

I'm drinking already FYI

 

 

 

Wouldn't Harden-Embiid be a better match? I thought Joel's issue is that he doesn't have anyone to open up the paint for him. 

[BradInATX 9208]

3 minutes ago, Brothahorn said:

Wouldn't Harden-Embiid be a better match? I thought Joel's issue is that he doesn't have anyone to open up the paint for him. 

Yeah, you're right, but Harden is the only asset Houston has that would land Embiid.

Edited September 11, 2020 by BradInATX

[d2o 1602]

50 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

   

 

Purely hot take fantasy land here... Harden for Embiid. Embiid and Westbrook would probably work well together and maybe a change of scenery will make him stop being a soft chump. Although I have no idea how Philly would even begin to make Harden and Simmons work. They'd need to move Ben for a non ball dominant perimeter defender who can score when Harden is doubled. Someone like Jimmy Butler. Lulz both for irony and the fact that Butler would murder Harden in his sleep within weeks of being his teammate.

I'm drinking already FYI

 

 

 

Clearly hhahhaahhahaa

[ztejas 43266]

Imagine sitting next to Brad at a bar and he keeps bringing up how underrated Jimmy Butler is and why he would take Steph over LeBron. 

[d2o 1602]

1 hour ago, ztejas said:

20% is really fucking bad. You can go 5 of 21 shooting and not be below 20%. 

They just showed on the Jump that he has 4 playoff games going EXACTLY 2/11.   That's wild as hell.

[shadow_operative 15932]

Hypothetical:

Miami offers Herro, Robinson, Crowder, and their next two no.1's to Milwaukee for Giannis. What does Milwaukee do?

[Mitch Cumsteen 18523]

48 minutes ago, shadow_operative said:

Hypothetical:

Miami offers Herro, Robinson, Crowder, and their next two no.1's to Milwaukee for Giannis. What does Milwaukee do?

Laughs in their face.

[conVINCEd 21468]

It’s generally a bad idea to trade a dollar for 3 quarters, 2 dimes, and a nickel.

Edited September 11, 2020 by conVINCEd

[d2o 1602]

1 hour ago, shadow_operative said:

Hypothetical:

Miami offers Herro, Robinson, Crowder, and their next two no.1's to Milwaukee for Giannis. What does Milwaukee do?

Says "Get off my phone"

[Wulaw Horn 18980]

1 hour ago, shadow_operative said:

Hypothetical:

Miami offers Herro, Robinson, Crowder, and their next two no.1's to Milwaukee for Giannis. What does Milwaukee do?

Tell them to go duck themselves. They have to be all in on winning a title next year. There is no conceivable universe where that package going to them will ever put them in a position to win a title. 

[shadow_operative 15932]

9 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Tell them to go duck themselves. They have to be all in on winning a title next year. There is no conceivable universe where that package going to them will ever put them in a position to win a title. 

they're not going to win a title with Giannis, and they could lose him for absolutely nothing a year from now. i'd bet pretty decent money that the package that Milwaukee ultimately gets for Giannis isn't much better than my hypothetical, particularly considering that I cannot see him staying in Milwaukee past next season. they punted on winning a title when they decided that they didn't need Brogdon and that Middleton is a legit no.2. 

[shadow_operative 15932]

47 minutes ago, conVINCEd said:

It’s generally a bad idea to trade a dollar for 3 quarters, 2 dimes, and a nickel.

except for when there's a better than 50/50 chance (more like 95/5 in my eyes) that you could lose the dollar altogether and get nothing in return. 

[shadow_operative 15932]

who here thinks that Milwaukee has *any* chance to win the title next year? literally any chance at all. i know I don't. literally none. so how do they go about re-signing what will be the biggest FA in NBA history? in that city? how do they possibly convince him to stay? 

Edited September 11, 2020 by shadow_operative

[d2o 1602]

[d2o 1602]

21 minutes ago, shadow_operative said:

who here thinks that Milwaukee has *any* chance to win the title next year? literally any chance at all. i know I don't. literally none. so how do they go about re-signing what will be the biggest FA in NBA history? in that city? how do they possibly convince him to stay? 

Considering the offseason hasnt even started how could make that determination?   A whole lot of things could change between now and then.   Shit, if Giannis gets a good shooting coach and comes back with some semblance of a game outside of 8 ft they might be able to win even without any changes.

[Patrick Bateman 3903]

20 minutes ago, shadow_operative said:

who here thinks that Milwaukee has *any* chance to win the title next year? literally any chance at all. i know I don't. literally none. so how do they go about re-signing what will be the biggest FA in NBA history? in that city? how do they possibly convince him to stay? 

Did anyone think Toronto was going to win last year?  But they made some good trades and got a lot of good fortune including almost unprecedented Finals injury help.  Do I think it's likely?  Probably not, but if Giannis is there, they should have a shot.  Personally, I think they need to blow it up around him.  Brogdon for Bledsoe (which was basically the choice) could end up being a organizational pivoting decision.

 

[d2o 1602]

28 minutes ago, shadow_operative said:

except for when there's a better than 50/50 chance (more like 95/5 in my eyes) that you could lose the dollar altogether and get nothing in return. 

This forgone conclusion that he is leaving is way off IMO.   Unless MIL just comes out and says "we arent doing shit to make our team better" he isnt going anywhere.

[Wulaw Horn 18980]

29 minutes ago, shadow_operative said:

they're not going to win a title with Giannis, and they could lose him for absolutely nothing a year from now. i'd bet pretty decent money that the package that Milwaukee ultimately gets for Giannis isn't much better than my hypothetical, particularly considering that I cannot see him staying in Milwaukee past next season. they punted on winning a title when they decided that they didn't need Brogdon and that Middleton is a legit no.2. 

Maybe not- but their best bet is to keep him and push the chips and then get a package of nothing for him and bottom out and suck. Even if you think they have as little as a 10% chance of winning a title next year you can’t punt imo. 

[Wulaw Horn 18980]

1 minute ago, d2o said:

This forgone conclusion that he is leaving is way off IMO.   Unless MIL just comes out and says "we arent doing shit to make our team better" he isnt going anywhere.

I’m going to disagree with you there. My bet is he’s gone. 

[shadow_operative 15932]

fair enough. maybe i'm projecting my own feelings onto Giannis, but when they let Brogdon go and made Middleton their no.2 player i thought to myself, "welp, they ain't winning a title." still, they'd better have a pretty great off season if they plan on keeping him moving forward. i don't think they have any chance to win a title without getting a true no.2 guy in there. 

Edited September 11, 2020 by shadow_operative
phrasing

[d2o 1602]

Just now, Wulaw Horn said:

I’m going to disagree with you there. My bet is he’s gone. 

He seems to be a different kinda guy   He doesn't really fraternize with other players.   I think his international background leaves a little less pressed about the "small market" stuff as well.   Barring a massive managerial failure (and the Bucks are actually trying hard at failing) I dont think he leaves after next season.    He may do a short term deal to keep pressure on them to improved the roster but I dont see him leaving next summer.

[d2o 1602]

6 minutes ago, shadow_operative said:

fair enough. maybe i'm projecting my own feelings onto Giannis, but when they let Brogdon go and made Middleton their no.2 player i thought to myself, "welp, they ain't winning a title." still, they'd better have a pretty great off season if they plan on keeping him moving forward. i don't think they have any chance to win a title without getting a true no.2 guy in there. 

Middleton was the number 2 when they had Brogdon................and they still lost with Brogdon.   The choice was Brogdon or Bledsoe.   There were also rumblings that Brogdon didnt like the philosophy of Giannis having the ball all the time as a reason he left as well.

 

I know he is an Aggy and that may have some of you guys biased but the piling on Middleton as the issue is misplaced IMO.   They didnt lose the series cause of Middleton.   They lost the series cause of Giannis not playing up to his potential

Edited September 11, 2020 by d2o

[Flash 29]

First, Milwaukee should do everything they can to keep Giannis. They won't get equal value back in a trade, and can't attract the top free agents. If he tells them he won't sign i could see a trade with Dallas with a package built around Porzingis, or a trade with the Celtics based on Jaylen Brown and draft picks.

Also, I dont see how a Miami team with Giannis, Jimmy and Bam wins a title. The spacing would be terrible.

[shadow_operative 15932]

23 minutes ago, d2o said:

Middleton was the number 2 when they had Brogdon................and they still lost with Brogdon.   The choice was Brogdon or Bledsoe.   There were also rumblings that Brogdon didnt like the philosophy of Giannis having the ball all the time as a reason he left as well.

 

I know he is an Aggy and that may have some of you guys biased but the piling on Middleton as the issue is misplaced IMO.   They didnt lose the series cause of Middleton.   They lost the series cause of Giannis not playing up to his potential

it's not that Middleton is the issue, it's that he's not good enough to be a legit no.2 guy on a championship team, whereas Brogdon is the more versatile and defensive minded if the two, which imo makes him more valuable than Middleton. You can find shooters, but it's tough to find two-way guards like Brogdon who can facilitate and defend. I don't think either guy is a legit no.2 on a title winning team, but i really hated the move to let Brogdon go for Bledsoe. I believe it's a losing move. It's not KM's fault that he isn't up to snuff as a true no.2 on a title winning team, so don't think that I say any of this to dismiss or to blame him. 

[ztejas 43266]

There have been plenty of worse #2s than Middleton on title teams. The issue is with their #1 guy and maybe their #3-#6 rotation.

[hobbes2702 12833]

3 minutes ago, ztejas said:

There have been plenty of worse #2s than Middleton on title teams. The issue is with their #1 guy and maybe their #3-#6 rotation.

Giannis is a center. There’s been maybe two centers since Wilt that have been able to win titles without an elite perimeter player also. Middleton isn’t good enough to make defenses care enough about him.

[aggie08 21434]

3 hours ago, shadow_operative said:

Hypothetical:

Miami offers Herro, Robinson, Crowder, and their next two no.1's to Milwaukee for Giannis. What does Milwaukee do?

I mean, even if their gut feeling is that Giannis is gone, if you trade a 2-time MVP just entering his prime for a trio of guys with zero combined All-Star appearances, who probably top out as "really nice players", and a couple of non-lottery picks, you may as well start packing your bags now.

They should be able to do better than that package even if Giannis publicly demands a trade to a short list of teams tomorrow.

[conVINCEd 21468]

25 minutes ago, shadow_operative said:

it's not that Middleton is the issue, it's that he's not good enough to be a legit no.2 guy on a championship team, whereas Brogdon is the more versatile and defensive minded if the two, which imo makes him more valuable than Middleton. You can find shooters, but it's tough to find two-way guards like Brogdon who can facilitate and defend. I don't think either guy is a legit no.2 on a title winning team, but i really hated the move to let Brogdon go for Bledsoe. I believe it's a losing move. It's not KM's fault that he isn't up to snuff as a true no.2 on a title winning team, so don't think that I say any of this to dismiss or to blame him. 

Their problem was that Bledsoe’s contract was up first and they were trying to show Giannis that they were serious.