2019-2020 NBA Season Thread

[Grade of D as in David 13,255]

9 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

So they also suck at managing their loads.

They should talk to the Suns about that. 

[Kermit 3,162]

This thread sure has taken a turn into Shawn Kemp discussions.

[ztejas 44,114]

19 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

So they also suck at managing their loads.

Kawhi is a delicate flower. You can't ask him to play more than 30 minutes a night for longer than a 6 game series. 

[Patrick Bateman 3,966]

9 hours ago, youdunnf'dup said:

Kobe went 6 for 24 in game 7 of the NBA finals. He was bailed out by a big 4th quarter from Ron Artest. It can happen. It’s one game. 

Ha.  Kobe was terrible in 5 out of 7 of those games but it's somehow part of his "legacy".  Metta bailed him out in the the 2nd half of game 7 and Pau Gasol, who Lakers fans thought soft, was the best Laker in that series and was robbed of the MVP.  Want to know how bad Kobe was in that series.  27-27-27.  Those are his assist, turnover and foul totals for the series.  Ha.  He was really bad, but I digress.....

Also KD had that awful close out game 6 vs the Warriors at home which changed the NBA forever.  Great players have terrible games.  It happens.  Tragic Johnson.  Lebron.  Kobe.  They've all had bad games in big moments.

[52-80 19,379]

43 minutes ago, ztejas said:

 

I wasn't talking about Kobe, and I wasn't talking about game 5s or 6s. But okay.

Only game number 7 are important.  Elimination games arent important if theyre numbered 5 or 6? 

Another way to put it, losing a series in 5 games is better than losing a series in 7 games?

[RexWilson 1,499]

 

[youdunnf'dup 2,147]

1 hour ago, ztejas said:

 

I wasn't talking about Kobe, and I wasn't talking about game 5s or 6s. But okay.

My point was Kobe is considered an all time great player and and all time great closer, and he didn’t get criticized for that game because he had built up enough credibility to say “ok this is one bad game. We’ve seen this guy dominate down the stretch too many times for anything to change my opinion.”

 

Paul George on the other hand...man. I almost feel bad for him at this point.

[Mitch Cumsteen 18,913]

Last night was one of the better nights of NBA basketball I can recall. Love the Heat. Those guys play their ass off and play with such heart. I've never cared much for that franchise, but I really, really like the team they have assembled. Spoelstra has never received much credit, but he's one of the better coaches in the league. That block, just wow. And the Nuggets... man they are fun to watch. Jokic is so unique. The dimes he was making last night on cutters out of the high post. And then playing out of the low post as well. Leading the break. Hitting threes. The guy is ridiculous and so much fun to watch. I'm sure the league is cringing at the thought of a Heat/Nuggets final, but I personally would love it.

With regard to Kawhi, I hope this changes the narrative around him a little. Don't get me wrong, he's still one of the top 5 players in the league but his reputation has been built on those two finals MVPs. The first one with the Spurs, he really kind of won by default. It's not like he was the sole dominant force in that series, but they had to give it to somebody. If there was ever a team win, that championship was it. And you can't tell me there is any way in hell the Raptors beat the Warriors last year with a healthy Durant and Klay. After he hit that shot vs. Philly, Toronto won the chip and he entered his free agency courtship, everybody ignored what a gigantic steaming cunt he acted like in San Antoino. So, fuck him. He's a great player. I don't think he's much of a leader and I hope he spends the rest of his career living up to the Clipper legacy.

[ztejas 44,114]

46 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

Only game number 7 are important.  Elimination games arent important if theyre numbered 5 or 6? 

Another way to put it, losing a series in 5 games is better than losing a series in 7 games?

I said what I said. I wasn't trying to argue anything else. 

If you want to debate game 5s and 6s versus game 7s we can. For example, in a game 7 at least one team has faced an elimination game. You've played against the other team at least 6 times. It is the only possible game in a series that is an elimation game for both teams. It is (typically) on a different floor than game 6 was. 

So for the 2 KD games that have been brought up - 2011 against the Grizz - he followed that game 6 with 15/23 shooting in game 7. In 2016 against the Warriors he followed game 6 with 10/17 shooting in game 7. Durant has played in 4 game 7s in his career and shot above 50% in all of them. 

I didn't look up LeBron's game by game - he might have had a poor game 7 early in his career - but he's usually been nails in G7s. 

I didn't say neither of them have ever had a bad game in the playoffs - of course they have. But when it comes to game 7s specifically they have never gone as bitchmade as Kawhi did last night. When you are comparing superstar legacies against each other then it is a relevant talking point - however specific it may be. LeBron is a consensus top 5 player of all time and most people have him higher. Durant is a consensus top 25 player ever and most people have him higher, too. To move up into those echelons if you're Kawhi you can't be shooting 6 of 22 in a VERY forgiving environment where you are playing on the same rims every night without fans in attendance and without traveling. Guys are breaking playoff scoring records every other night. Shooting 6 of 22 when you're supposed to be the best player in the league and the media is starting to figure out where to put you on all time lists is not a good look. Especialy when the team you left last season did just as well without you as you did on your new team. Could you imagine if Durant in 2017 got bounced in the conference semis while OKC took someone else to 7 on the other side of the bracket? Obviously not totally analogous but similar.

[ztejas 44,114]

13 minutes ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

And you can't tell me there is any way in hell the Raptors beat the Warriors last year with a healthy Durant and Klay. After he hit that shot vs. Philly

That Toronto team was also fucking loaded, and largely still is. They didn't have multiple all-stars but I struggle to come up with another championship team that had a 10 player rotation as deep as they did. They had a legit championship caliber backup at every fucking position. 

[aggie08 21,734]

No way Doc loses his job for this, but, man, maybe he should. He coaches soft, whiny teams. Period. Some of that is the personnel, but he's the consistent piece. There has to be something to finding a way to blowing a 3-1 lead three (3!!!) fucking times. The first one maybe wasn't his fault--losing to the #1 seed Pistons as an 8 seed with T-Mac who famously never won a playoff series--but the Houston debacle and now this...

[ztejas 44,114]

 

 

4 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

The first one maybe wasn't his fault--losing to the #1 seed Pistons as an 8 seed with T-Mac who famously never won a playoff series--but the Houston debacle and now this...

And in both series with his team up 3 to 1 many people thought he was coaching the best team in the league. At the very least a top 2 team. 

Also - his one title team - which was one of the most talented teams in NBA history - needed 26 fucking games to win the title. If anything he probably made it harder for them. I mean what fucking coach can you put on the 2008 Celtics that can't AT LEAST get those guys to the Finals.

Edited September 16, 2020 by ztejas

[SilasCoade 2,622]

46 minutes ago, ztejas said:

That Toronto team was also fucking loaded, and largely still is. They didn't have multiple all-stars but I struggle to come up with another championship team that had a 10 player rotation as deep as they did. They had a legit championship caliber backup at every fucking position. 

Ummm, seriously disagree.

Outside of Kawhi I don't think they had or currently have a top 20 player on the roster. I might not be understanding you here, but when you say "championship caliber backup" I assume you mean a guy that would start on most teams in the league and I think that is wildly off base. I also think you've got some recency bias showing there. Those 80s Lakers teams were deep. Houston's 90s champ teams were pretty deep. Even those Heat championship teams were at least as legit on the bench as the Raptors.

[ztejas 44,114]

10 minutes ago, Llogg said:

I might not be understanding you here, but when you say "championship caliber backup" I assume you mean a guy that would start on most teams in the league and I think that is wildly off base.

No, I mean one of the best backups in the league. A guy that might start somewhere else, but is better than most other teams #2 at their position. "Championship-caliber" meaning bench guys that elevate your odds to win a championship. 

80s Lakers/Celts are some good ones. So are the 2014 Spurs. Major disagreement on the 90s Rockets. They had a long list of contributors but not as talented player for player as the Raptors (at least towards the end of the rotation - obviously their top 3 or 4 guys were just as good).

And I overstated it a bit - they were about 9 deep. Kawhi, Lowry, Siakam, Gasol, Ibaka, VanVleet, Anunoby, Danny Green, Powell. When the 9th best guy on your team is any of those guys you're pretty fucking good.

Edited September 16, 2020 by ztejas

[Vic Mackey 47,848]

[ztejas 44,114]

1 minute ago, Vic Mackey said:

Yeah. LeBron's usually too busy getting swept or losing in 5 games in the Finals.

[Sbbruin 22,082]

1 hour ago, aggie08 said:

No way Doc loses his job for this, but, man, maybe he should. He coaches soft, whiny teams. Period. Some of that is the personnel, but he's the consistent piece. There has to be something to finding a way to blowing a 3-1 lead three (3!!!) fucking times. The first one maybe wasn't his fault--losing to the #1 seed Pistons as an 8 seed with T-Mac who famously never won a playoff series--but the Houston debacle and now this...

Yeah, he'll get one more shot with this team next year.  Probably NBA finals or bust.

[52-80 19,379]

1 hour ago, ztejas said:

I said what I said. I wasn't trying to argue anything else. 

If you want to debate game 5s and 6s versus game 7s we can. For example, in a game 7 at least one team has faced an elimination game. You've played against the other team at least 6 times. It is the only possible game in a series that is an elimation game for both teams. It is (typically) on a different floor than game 6 was. 

So for the 2 KD games that have been brought up - 2011 against the Grizz - he followed that game 6 with 15/23 shooting in game 7. In 2016 against the Warriors he followed game 6 with 10/17 shooting in game 7. Durant has played in 4 game 7s in his career and shot above 50% in all of them. 

 

The significance of G7 - why people bring it up - is because it's an elimination game.

 

From individual perspective, doesn't matter if the opposing team had already faced elimination in the same series or not.  Just talking about that individual player playing with HIS season on the line.

 

The Memphis game I mentioned when he went 5-21 was in 2013.  And it was a home game.  And elimination, so no more 6s or 7s to make up for it.

 

(He also went 5-21 again the next year against memphis)

 

 

 

[MNLonghornFUKM 8,963]

 

Well the other bro hitched his wagon to the lakers. If they get pounced, have either of the twins won a ring?


Either way, they’re shit.

[Vic Mackey 47,848]

22 minutes ago, ztejas said:

Yeah. LeBron's usually too busy getting swept or losing in 5 games in the Finals.

Still hasn't choked away a 3-1 lead, though.

[SilasCoade 2,622]

37 minutes ago, ztejas said:

 Major disagreement on the 90s Rockets. They had a long list of contributors but not as talented player for player as the Raptors (at least towards the end of the rotation - obviously their top 3 or 4 guys were just as good).

And I overstated it a bit - they were about 9 deep. Kawhi, Lowry, Siakam, Gasol, Ibaka, VanVleet, Anunoby, Danny Green, Powell. When the 9th best guy on your team is any of those guys you're pretty fucking good.

94-95 Rockets went Olajuwon, Drexler, Kenny Smith, Cassell, Elie, Horry, Maxwell, Thorpe. Not sure who their 9-10 guys would be, but I'll take that group against 8 of the Raptors last year and make a pretty good game of it. And if you are talking about this year's TOR team, that Rockets team shits all over them.

[Hate 20,232]

The Raptors don’t win 2 games against a fully healthy Warriors team.

[ztejas 44,114]

47 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

The Memphis game I mentioned when he went 5-21 was in 2013.  And it was a home game.  And elimination, so no more 6s or 7s to make up for it.

Okay. But OKC wasn't advancing if they won that game. You're bringing up a different argument that I'm not that interested in getting into because we will be here all day comparing these guys. I already conceded that LeBron and Durant have had poor performances in elim games. I was talking about game 7s, specifically. 

[hobbes2702 13,351]

48 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

The significance of G7 - why people bring it up - is because it's an elimination game.

 

From individual perspective, doesn't matter if the opposing team had already faced elimination in the same series or not.  Just talking about that individual player playing with HIS season on the line.

 

The Memphis game I mentioned when he went 5-21 was in 2013.  And it was a home game.  And elimination, so no more 6s or 7s to make up for it.

 

(He also went 5-21 again the next year against memphis)

 

 

 

Meh he also didn’t have RW on the court. The clippers have way too many guys that people have to guard, for your star to shoot that poorly.

[PittsburghTiger 6,320]

Combined $63,000,000 this season for Leonard & George 

[touchthemonolith 654]

GD I've watched a lotta teams lose a lotta games, and that Clippers loss was one of the most sexually-gratifying ones I've watched.

[Sbbruin 22,082]

55 minutes ago, PittsburghTiger said:

Combined $63,000,000 this season for Leonard & George 

And it looked like money well spent for most of the season.  Until they got Jokic'd.

[Don Johnson 4,802]

 

[Don Johnson 4,802]

 

[hobbes2702 13,351]

I would have had Simmons 2nd team instead of Pascal but I’m good with those. Maybe would put Embiid over Gobert but not bothered by those choices at all. Glad Luka got his spot on 1st team instead of Kawhi.

[ztejas 44,114]

1 minute ago, Don Johnson said:

 

CP3 making all nba 2nd team at 35 yo is pretty badass. 

[washparkhorn 9,967]

[touchthemonolith 654]

2 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

It's good that Joker decided to play basketball, instead of just looking like one.  

[BradInATX 9,208]

Doc did a really good job with the Celtics and has been average ever since.

 

Anyone give Denver a chance? What does their path to winning look like?

 

Maybe something like

- Jokic continuing to play hard and smart. He probably won't get the gaudy stats this series but he needs to continue to keep the offense flowing. He really, really needs to stay out of foul trouble which is a big ask. Davis will lean on him and LeBron will drive aggressively and we all know the calls both of them get.

- We need first round Murray. He'll have much better looks against LAL than LAC

- LAL role players come back to Earth and remember that they're mostly washed up shitbags.

- Gary Harris will be an overlooked chess piece. He's the best perimeter defender on the team. No coincidence that their defense improved after he started getting larger minutes and knocked rust off coming off injury.

 

It's a really really small needle to thread. Not sure it can happen. The small ray of hope I have is the way they wore the Clippers down over the series. They need to do the same to the older and less deep Lakers. Run them ragged.

 

 

[Wulaw Horn 19,560]

2 hours ago, Llogg said:

94-95 Rockets went Olajuwon, Drexler, Kenny Smith, Cassell, Elie, Horry, Maxwell, Thorpe. Not sure who their 9-10 guys would be, but I'll take that group against 8 of the Raptors last year and make a pretty good game of it. And if you are talking about this year's TOR team, that Rockets team shits all over them.

Thorpe and Drexler never played on the same Rockets team, and Maxwell was suspended for the playoffs with that Drexler team, so you are really talking about: Hakeem, Drexler, Smith, Cassell, Ellie and Horry. I want to say chuckie brown and or pete chilcut were maybe not prominently involved but got some run.  That team wasn't super deep, honestly.  It was Hakeem at the height of his powers, Drexler severely diminished from him being a top 5 guys (more like a top 15 or 20 guy by that point in time) a young Cassell, and do it all guys like Ellie and Horry to round out the team, and Kenny Bitchass Smith.  

[PittsburghTiger 6,320]

56 minutes ago, Sbbruin said:

And it looked like money well spent for most of the season.  Until they got Jokic'd.

Yup, strange how that seems to work sometimes. In my mind, I guess, it is now the Lakers title to lose. I reckon.

[ztejas 44,114]

34 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Thorpe and Drexler never played on the same Rockets team, and Maxwell was suspended for the playoffs with that Drexler team, so you are really talking about: Hakeem, Drexler, Smith, Cassell, Ellie and Horry. I want to say chuckie brown and or pete chilcut were maybe not prominently involved but got some run.  That team wasn't super deep, honestly.  It was Hakeem at the height of his powers, Drexler severely diminished from him being a top 5 guys (more like a top 15 or 20 guy by that point in time) a young Cassell, and do it all guys like Ellie and Horry to round out the team, and Kenny Bitchass Smith.  

Thanks for doing the legwork for me. 

[Wulaw Horn 19,560]

7 minutes ago, PittsburghTiger said:

Yup, strange how that seems to work sometimes. In my mind, I guess, it is now the Lakers title to lose. I reckon.

Considering the fact that there was a clear betting tier of Lakers, Bucks and Clippers and they are the only ones left standing, yeah, I don't see how you could think otherwise.  I don't think Denver poses any actual match up problems for them, and you have to think they are just flat better than Miami or Boston, so yeah- I guess King James gets his 4th ring with his third different franchise.

He's putting together a really interesting career to contrast with MJ's as the clear 1,2 in GOAT talk. I just can't see him passing MJ- but if he plays at a high level until he's 40, and wins another ring (after this one) as the best player on a title team his counting stats will be way better than Jordan's, while Jordan will have had a significantly better peak than Lebron. I'd take Jordan b/c I always take the highest peak over longevity (as long as we are talking about a peak that lasted for a good long time of course) but if you really wanted to argue Lebron I'd at least listen to you, I suppose, before telling you I thought you were wrong. 

[SilasCoade 2,622]

37 minutes ago, ztejas said:

Thanks for doing the legwork for me

He's right. I was just going by the roster list and had forgotten that Orton played half the season for the rockets. Maxwell getting suspended for the playoffs is irrelevant to the point. 

Edited September 16, 2020 by Llogg

[Sbbruin 22,082]

41 minutes ago, PittsburghTiger said:

Yup, strange how that seems to work sometimes. In my mind, I guess, it is now the Lakers title to lose. I reckon.

I think so.  -600 odds on the series for the Lakers.  That's pretty heavy favs.

[washparkhorn 9,967]

I think we should go ahead and play the series. The Lakers may be the mightiest army in the history of the world, but that motivates some opponents.

[aggie08 21,734]

1 hour ago, Don Johnson said:

 

Where the fuck is Jimmy Butler???

/BradInATX

[ztejas 44,114]

12 minutes ago, Sbbruin said:

I think so.  -600 odds on the series for the Lakers.  That's pretty heavy favs.

Holy shit it's at -600? Unfortunately I've lost enough money for one postseason. Damn bubble.

[Sbbruin 22,082]

4 minutes ago, ztejas said:

Holy shit it's at -600? Unfortunately I've lost enough money for one postseason. Damn bubble.

+450 on Denver.  Be worth the hedge to ease the pain of a potential loss.

[washparkhorn 9,967]

 

[Brothahorn 10,096]

 

 

 

If this is true, the Clips must have dug up Elgin Baylor to make this deal.

Edited September 16, 2020 by Brothahorn

[BradInATX 9,208]

43 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

Where the fuck is Jimmy Butler???

/BradInATX

He'd be in there if voting took place today. Several regular-season-only champions in there. He's better than at least three players on that list. I won't name the three because I don't care about debating the merits of whether or not he's better than so and so. He's firmly entrenched himself as a top 10 player.

But yeah, where the fuck is Jimmy Butler?!

Edited September 16, 2020 by BradInATX

[aggie08 21,734]

4 minutes ago, Brothahorn said:

 

 

 

If this this is true, the Clips must have dug up Elgin Baylor to make this deal.

To be fair, Kawhi signing on was contingent on getting PG--so it was basically a trade to get both of them--and Presto leveraged that perfectly. Still, that's going to absolutely cripple them for a decade if they leave after next season.

[Mitch Cumsteen 18,913]

Lakers/Nuggets are going to be interesting matchup-wise.

The obvious one is Davis/Jokic. The Lakers can throw Howard and McGee at him too. The Nugs can probably get away with a smaller player on Davis if they don't want to expose Jokic to foul trouble but if they go head to head, how novel is it to have two superstar centers as the most compelling matchup in a series? I also want to say one more thing about Jokic, because it's amazing to me how bad Utah torched him by putting him in the pick and roll and then the next series, he's staying in front of Kawhi Leonard one on one at the three point line. Like, what the fuck was that about?

Lebron is always a match up nightmare for everybody but it seems like Denver at least has some options to throw at him. Jerami Grant probably gets first crack but you'd think they could steal some minutes with Millsap and Craig on him.  Harris is their best perimeter defender but he seems undersized for Lebron. I don't think you want Porter to be checking him for very long, but they have some different looks they can give him.

Outside of Danny Green, the Lakers don't have a lot of options to check Murray. Coming off of Paul George and Kawhi Leonard, that should seem like a day at the beach. He's been on such a roll and I don't see anybody stopping him. Caruso? KCP?

I could talk myself into the Nuggets, but I have a hard time betting against Lebron. So far, the Lakers haven't been challenged in the playoffs. They are going to have to pick it up a notch this series. Should be a good one.

 

 

[aggie08 21,734]

Just now, BradInATX said:

He'd be in there if voting took place today. Several regular-season-only champions in there. He's better than at least three players on that list. I won't name the three because I don't care about debating the merits of whether or not he's better than so and so. He's firmly entrenched himself as a top 10 player.

But yeah, where the fuck is Jimmy Butler?!

Haha, just giving you a hard time. I agree that he's better than about 3 of those guys, especially in May...er, September...so I have no issue with someone saying he's a Top 10 player this year. In a normal year though, with a healthy KD and Steph, there's 9 guys that he has no argument up against: Bron, Giannis, Steph, KD, AD, Harden, Luka, Kawhi, Jokic. No knock against Butler; the top of the league is just really, really fucking good right now. The guys battling for that 10th spot aren't as clearly separated though, so an argument could be made for him there, even if I wouldn't necessarily agree with it. He's put himself comfortably in the conversation.