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2019-2020 NBA Season Thread

Goo Punch

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Hate
Hate

Well, at least you know he won’t spread it around very efficiently.

Vic Mackey
Vic Mackey

Fans should be able to come back now. They have zero issues with gathering into thousands to protest all around the country so why should they care if people want to go to games and gather in crowds i

Kermit
Kermit

You see, the Clippers are comprised of bitches, coached by a bitch, and are owned by a bitch. 

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BradInATX

BradInATX 9208

Posted
Posted (edited)

Right on. That's interesting.

All that aside, the best white player conversation should be limited to straight up white guys. Like, their parents listened to John Mellencamp, been called "scrappy blue collar" their whole life, grew up in the suburbs white guys. 

The top list of mixed-race American players would be extremely good. Kidd, Klay, Blake, Battier, Ben Simmons, The Lopezes. Hell, you could even make a cogent argument for Tim Duncan as his mom was white and he's generally considered "American". 

My top actual white guys ranking (post-Stockton, per @ztejas' original criteria). I had to do a little bit of research and memory-jogging here.

1) Kevin Love
2) Keith Van Horn
3) JJ Redick
4) Gordon Hayward
5) Wally Sczerbiak

Mind-blowingly, Keith Van Horn averaged more points and more rebounds per game than Hayward does, and that was in a much slower-paced era. 

Here's a question. How many wins does my all-white team have in any given year? I guess Love is my 5, Van Horn my 4, Wally and Hayward my hybrid 2/3s, and Redick is my point. It's a really interesting squad. Lots of size, but a surprising amount of shooting for a bunch of big white dudes. I don't think they make the playoffs in the modern era. Maybe in the 2000s. Not a single one of those guys is a reliable individual creator. 

Edited by BradInATX
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d2o

d2o 1603

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Posted
3 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

Right on. That's interesting.

All that aside, the best white player conversation should be limited to straight up white guys. Like, their parents listened to John Mellencamp, been called "scrappy blue collar" their whole life, grew up in the suburbs white guys. 

The top list of mixed-race American players would be extremely good. Kidd, Klay, Blake, Battier, Ben Simmons, The Lopezes. Hell, you could even make a cogent argument for Tim Duncan as his mom was white and he's generally considered "American". 

My top actual white guys ranking (post-Stockton, per @ztejas' original criteria). I had to do a little bit of research and memory-jogging here.

1) Kevin Love
2) Keith Van Horn
3) JJ Redick
4) Gordon Hayward
5) Wally Sczerbiak

Mind-blowingly, Keith Van Horn averaged more points and more rebounds per game than Hayward does, and that was in a much slower-paced era. 

Here's a question. How many wins does my all-white team have in any given year? I guess Love is my 5, Van Horn my 4, Wally and Hayward my hybrid 2/3s, and Redick is my point. It's a really interesting squad. Lots of size, but a surprising amount of shooting for a bunch of big white dudes. I don't think they make the playoffs in the modern era. Maybe in the 2000s. Not a single one of those guys is a reliable individual creator. 

If JJ is running point, ya losing.....................big time!!!!!!!!!

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d2o

d2o 1603

Posted
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2 minutes ago, BradInATX said:
4 minutes ago, d2o said:
If JJ is running point, ya losing.....................big time!!!!!!!!!

Yep. Kinda funny that the all white guy team lacks a ball handler.

He's not a starter level PG but TJ McConnell would prolly be the best current white PG.  Jason Williams is the best recent one

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ztejas

ztejas 44114

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5 hours ago, 52-80 said:

how you going to forget the all-flattop team?

 

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267x367

 

 

I think we're going by "since Stockton" 

Obviously Mullen is better than anyone listed save maybe KLove. 

And the all white American team would win 50 games and make the playoffs if you got everyone in their prime. 

PG - Hinrich, Williams, Blake/McConnell

SG - Redick, Kapono, Mike Miller, Herro

SF - Hayward, Korver, D. Robinson

PF - K Love, Van Horn, D. Lee

C - Lopez, Kaman, Andersen/Plumlee

They would suck on defense too much to do anything in the playoffs most years but they would fucking light it up on O. Shooters EVERYWHERE.

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BradInATX

BradInATX 9208

Posted
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10 minutes ago, ztejas said:

I think we're going by "since Stockton" 

Obviously Mullen is better than anyone listed save maybe KLove. 

And the all white American team would win 50 games and make the playoffs if you got everyone in their prime. 

PG - Hinrich, Williams, Blake/McConnell

SG - Redick, Kapono, Mike Miller, Herro

SF - Hayward, Korver, D. Robinson

PF - K Love, Van Horn, D. Lee

C - Lopez, Kaman, Andersen/Plumlee

They would suck on defense too much to do anything in the playoffs most years but they would fucking light it up on O. Shooters EVERYWHERE.

My concern with that team is what's stopping you from just playing tight man against them? None of those guys can slash to the basket. None can create their own shot except for maybe Love in his Timberwolves prime, and even then, he was a pretty low-efficiency player. There's not a dominant enough interior player to command enough attention to play an inside-out game (IE Spurs in the 2000s or current Nuggets). 

You also keep cheat-coding Lopez in there. If he's white, so is Jason Kidd. You either have to start Kaman or Bird Man at C, which makes your offense even worse.

I don't see the offense. Those guys are all catch-and-shoot guys which requires other players to create offensive gravity. Nobody on that team does. And they're going to get absolutely torched on defense. Kirk, JJ, and Hayward would get eviscerated by any team with decent wings. It would be horror-show level. Maybe they win 50 games in the east in 2003, because most competent teams could. Modern era that's a 35-win team in either conference, at best.

 

This is currently the best debate/discussion on all of Surly, BTW.

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ztejas

ztejas 44114

Posted
Posted
3 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

Dont forget scrappiness, and deceptive speed

Too many coaches on the floor to count. 

 

2 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

None of those guys can slash to the basket. None can create their own shot except for maybe Love in his Timberwolves prime,

You are seriously underrating some of these guys. Check out some stats and career highlights and get back to me. 

Mike Miller can't slash? JWill can't create? Please.

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Mitch Cumsteen

Mitch Cumsteen 18913

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1 minute ago, BradInATX said:

I don't see the offense and this team is going to get absolutely torched on defense. Kirk, JJ, and Hayward would get eviscerated by any team with decent wings. It would be horror-show level.

Hinrich was a plus defender. Even made second team all nba defensive team one season. 

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BradInATX

BradInATX 9208

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Just now, ztejas said:

Too many coaches on the floor to count. 

 

You are seriously underrating some of these guys. Check out some stats and career highlights and get back to me. 

Mike Miller can't slash? JWill can't create? Please.

LOL I mean Mike Miller is a reasonably good 3rd or 4th option on a team. Who is your first offensive option there?

You make a good point about white chocolate, he's probably a better starting than Heinrich because even though Kirk was a better player, Williams is more of a drive-the-basket and kick type player, which would be better suited for this team.

But I mean, you're talking about a team full of decent 2nd, 3rd, and 4th options. There's no go-to-guy. So you're looking basically at the 2020 Toronto Raptors if they were the worst defensive team in the league. That's 30-35 wins.

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BradInATX

BradInATX 9208

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

Hinrich was a plus defender. Even made second team all nba defensive team one season. 

Barely and briefly.

He is the very definition of an average player. 

ETA: Just checked his advanced stats. His career points per 100 overall plus/minus is zero. He's literally the perfectly average player.

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Mitch Cumsteen

Mitch Cumsteen 18913

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9 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

Barely and briefly.

He is the very definition of an average player. 

ETA: Just checked his advanced stats. His career points per 100 overall plus/minus is zero. He's literally the perfectly average player.

I guess it just depends on if you look at a guy at his peak or average out his entire career.

The first part of his career was promising, but IIRC, he was one of those guys who couldn't ever stay healthy. It seemed like he was always suffering from one nagging injury or another, and then Derrick Rose showed up and he got moved to SG and that was it.

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BradInATX

BradInATX 9208

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3 hours ago, youdunnf'dup said:

I didn't realize this as I was watching last night, but Miami basically had 4 guys score all their points last night. Herro, Butler, Bam, and Dragic. The rest of the team, two buckets, and I think 5 free throws. 

Crowder was really off last night, although he's been a solid contributor for them otherwise.

Duncan Robinson is the one who has been quiet for them. I have a feeling he's going to bust a random 20-25 point game one of these days. The Heat may not go 10 deep but they have six guys (your 4 + Robinson/Crowder) that can get them 20 on any given night, which I think is part of why they're overlooked. They don't have any offensive supernovas (at least until last night), but they also have a 5th starter who can lead them in scoring on any given night. 

I also think there's something about the bubble that they're responding better to than most. I can't pinpoint it, and we may never know. But they're so workmanlike that they probably don't care about the lack of fanfare or crowd energy. They just do their thing on every possession.

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HookEm

HookEm 2492

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Ok. Here is my definitive white-guy team using only years 2001 or later.  This team has two All-NBA 2nd Teamers, plus another 3 All-Stars.   This team will D you up and shoot you out the gym.  Since every player is a coach on the floor, it is no surprise that even the bigs off the bench are averaging 4 assists per game.   

 

I guarantee you this team wins 50+ games and would have a very real shot at the title in any year.  Plenty of offense.  Plenty of hard-hitting defenders.  Super deep bench.  And even the practice squad has long-time NBA starters in it.  You have shooting.  You have passing.  You can push the pace with Jason Williams or slow things down and bang on you.

 

PG - Kirk Hinrich – 16.6 pts, 3.4 reb, 6.3 ast, 0.3 blk, 1.3 stl (2007 All Defense 2nd)

SG - JJ Redick – 18.1 pts, 2.4 reb, 2.7 ast, 0.2 blk, 0.4 stl (2019)

SF - Gordan Hayward – 21.9 pts, 5.4 reb, 3.5 ast, 0.3 blk, 1.0 stl (2017 – All Star)

PF - Kevin Love – 26.0 pts, 13.3 reb, 2.0 ast, 0.5 blk, 0.9 stl (2014 All-NBA 2nd, All-Star, #6 MVP)

 C  - Chris Kaman – 18.5 pts, 9.3 reb, 1.6 ast, 1.2 blk, 0.5 stl (2010 All-Star)

 

Bench

PG - Jason Williams – 14.8 pts, 3.0 reb, 80 ast, 0.1 blk, 1.7 stl (2002)

SG - Joe Harris – 14.4 pts, 4.3 reb, 2.1 ast, 0.2 blk, 0.6 stl (2020 3 pt Champ)

SF - Keith Van Horn – 17.0 pts, 7.1 reb, 1.7 ast, 0.4 blk, 0.8 stl (2001)

PF - David Lee – 20.2 pts, 11.7 reb, 3.6 ast, 0.5 blk, 1.0 stl (2013 All NBA 2nd, All-Star)

C - Brad Miller – 14.1 pts, 10.3 reb, 4.3 ast, 1.2 blk, 0.9 stl (2004 All-Star)

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 

 

Practice Squad

PG - Luke Ridnour – 11.5 pts, 3.0 reb, 7.0 ast, 0.3 blk, 1.6 stl 

SG - Tyler Herro – 13.5 pts, 4.1 reb, 2.2 ast, 0.2 blk, 0.6 stl (2020)

SF - Mike Miller – 18.5 pts, 5.4 reb, 4.3 ast, 0.3 blk, 0.8 stl (2007) - SF

PF - Raef LaFrenz – 13.5 pts, 7.4 reb, 1.1 ast, 2.7 blk, 0.7 stl  (2002)

C - Nick Collison – 9.8 pts, 9.4 reb, 1.4 ast, 0.8 blk, 0.6 stl (2008)

 

Others

Mason Plumlee – 10.4 pts, 7.5 reb, 3.5 ast, 1.1 blk, 0.9 stl  (2017)

Chris Anderson – 6.4 pts, 6.2 reb, 0.4 ast, 2.5 blk, 0.6 stl (2009)

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washparkhorn

washparkhorn 9967

Posted
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2 hours ago, BradInATX said:

I also think there's something about the bubble that they're responding better to than most. I can't pinpoint it, and we may never know. But they're so workmanlike that they probably don't care about the lack of fanfare or crowd energy. They just do their thing on every possession.

That's Miami and Denver in the bubble. Almost like they want their opponents to suffer as an avenue to breaking them down mentally on the court. 

The mental game in the bubble is tough for recognized superstars. Their reward for winning is another night in a hotel room with hotel food. It's a grind. Some teams are better prepared for that grind than other. See LAC. 

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BradInATX

BradInATX 9208

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Ok. Here is my definitive white-guy team using only years 2001 or later.  This team has two All-NBA 2nd Teamers, plus another 3 All-Stars.   This team will D you up and shoot you out the gym.  Since every player is a coach on the floor, it is no surprise that even the bigs off the bench are averaging 4 assists per game.     

I guarantee you this team wins 50+ games and would have a very real shot at the title in any year.  Plenty of offense.  Plenty of hard-hitting defenders.  Super deep bench.  And even the practice squad has long-time NBA starters in it.  You have shooting.  You have passing.  You can push the pace with Jason Williams or slow things down and bang on you.

 

PG - Kirk Hinrich – 16.6 pts, 3.4 reb, 6.3 ast, 0.3 blk, 1.3 stl (2007 All Defense 2nd)

SG - JJ Redick – 18.1 pts, 2.4 reb, 2.7 ast, 0.2 blk, 0.4 stl (2019)

SF - Gordan Hayward – 21.9 pts, 5.4 reb, 3.5 ast, 0.3 blk, 1.0 stl (2017 – All Star)

PF - Kevin Love – 26.0 pts, 13.3 reb, 2.0 ast, 0.5 blk, 0.9 stl (2014 All-NBA 2nd, All-Star, #6 MVP)

 C  - Chris Kaman – 18.5 pts, 9.3 reb, 1.6 ast, 1.2 blk, 0.5 stl (2010 All-Star)

 

Bench

PG - Jason Williams – 14.8 pts, 3.0 reb, 80 ast, 0.1 blk, 1.7 stl (2002)

SG - Joe Harris – 14.4 pts, 4.3 reb, 2.1 ast, 0.2 blk, 0.6 stl (2020 3 pt Champ)

SF - Keith Van Horn – 17.0 pts, 7.1 reb, 1.7 ast, 0.4 blk, 0.8 stl (2001)

PF - David Lee – 20.2 pts, 11.7 reb, 3.6 ast, 0.5 blk, 1.0 stl (2013 All NBA 2nd, All-Star)

C - Brad Miller – 14.1 pts, 10.3 reb, 4.3 ast, 1.2 blk, 0.9 stl (2004 All-Star)

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 

 

Practice Squad

PG - Luke Ridnour – 11.5 pts, 3.0 reb, 7.0 ast, 0.3 blk, 1.6 stl 

SG - Tyler Herro – 13.5 pts, 4.1 reb, 2.2 ast, 0.2 blk, 0.6 stl (2020)

SF - Mike Miller – 18.5 pts, 5.4 reb, 4.3 ast, 0.3 blk, 0.8 stl (2007) - SF

PF - Raef LaFrenz – 13.5 pts, 7.4 reb, 1.1 ast, 2.7 blk, 0.7 stl  (2002)

C - Nick Collison – 9.8 pts, 9.4 reb, 1.4 ast, 0.8 blk, 0.6 stl (2008)

 

Others

Mason Plumlee – 10.4 pts, 7.5 reb, 3.5 ast, 1.1 blk, 0.9 stl  (2017)

Chris Anderson – 6.4 pts, 6.2 reb, 0.4 ast, 2.5 blk, 0.6 stl (2009)

 

Your starters are the same as ztejas once you take Lopez out. Some cool creative bench players. Joe Harris is a great pull. I still think they're all 35 win teams in the modern era. Great post, +rep 

 

 

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BradInATX

BradInATX 9208

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Posted
11 minutes ago, cmontexas said:

Ryan Anderson was the white guy I was thinking of. He hasnt been mentioned here I think remember the Rockets gave him like 90 million dollars

2nd best white guy named Anderson in the past 15 years.

 

I had forgotten how much I dislike Dwight Howard until this series. As if 2020 doesn't suck enough, him coattailing a ring would be the shit icing on the shit cake.

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Helobious

Helobious 9755

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13 hours ago, BradInATX said:

Isn't his mom half white half black?

 

Either way, mixed-race shouldn't count here. If it does, then the entire list is going to be guys who are half-white. Klay, Blake, and the obvious answer to the question if we don't count Curry, Jason Kidd, would be your obvious top 3. All better than Kevin Love.

Nearly all African-Americans are mixed race to a certain degree.

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