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2019-2020 NBA Season Thread

Goo Punch

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ztejas

ztejas 43266

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I think Denver is leading 3-2 right now if you reverse the foul count on LeBron and Jokic the last two games. Or even take one from Jokic each game and give it to LeBron. Which wouldn't be unreasonable at all. 

Not arguing that Denver is the better team, of course they aren't. But it wasn't some blowout 5 game series. Reminded me A LOT of LeBron's first Finals win in 2012. And he received some hugely preferential treatment that series. 

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hobbes2702

hobbes2702 12826

Posted
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5 minutes ago, ztejas said:

I think Denver is leading 3-2 right now if you reverse the foul count on LeBron and Jokic the last two games. Or even take one from Jokic each game and give it to LeBron. Which wouldn't be unreasonable at all. 

Not arguing that Denver is the better team, of course they aren't. But it wasn't some blowout 5 game series. Reminded me A LOT of LeBron's first Finals win in 2012. And he received some hugely preferential treatment that series. 

It was a 5 game series that required the nuggets to come from behind in every game. It was about as much of a blowout as you’ll find in the conference finals barring a Portland showing up.

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ztejas

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Posted
Posted
5 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

It was about as much of a blowout as you’ll find in the conference finals barring a Portland showing up.

That's not even remotely true. Warriors swept the Spurs in 2017. Warriors smacked the Rockets in 2015 in 5 games. Spurs swept the Grizzlies in 2014. Mavericks beat OKC convincingly in 5 in 2011. Lakers handled the Spurs easily in 5 in 2008. Spurs fucking demolished the Jazz in 5 in 2007. 

Do you want me to keep going?

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hobbes2702

hobbes2702 12826

Posted
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1 minute ago, ztejas said:

That's not even remotely true. Warriors swept the Spurs in 2017. Warriors smacked the Rockets in 2015 in 5 games. Spurs swept the Grizzlies in 2014. Mavericks beat OKC convincingly in 5 in 2011. Lakers handled the Spurs easily in 5 in 2008. Spurs fucking demolished the Jazz in 5 in 2007. 

Do you want me to keep going?

So you mean you’re listing all the other similar blowouts? Yes keep going.

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SilasCoade

SilasCoade 2620

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Lakers are better than Nuggets, but to say it's not close is totally disingenuous. It is likewise disingenuous to ignore the preferential treatment Lebron gets from the refs and league in general. Did we forget that the Lakers needed a miracle 3 from Davis to win game 2? Let's also recognize that without invoking conspiracy theories it is still worth noting that the team that attempted more free throws won every single game in the series. For the series the margin on FT attempts was +17 Lakers. The point differential for the entire series was +22 Lakers. At a team average 80% from the stripe, the free throw discrepancy gave the Lakers roughly 14 points. This means the entire series not impacted  by the refs implicit biases was decided by 8 points. That hardly speaks to some overwhelming dominance. The Lakers are better. The Lakers and especially Lebron got the benefit of the doubt from the refs more often than not. Denver is close. All of these things can be simultaneously true.

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hobbes2702

hobbes2702 12826

Posted
Posted
14 minutes ago, ztejas said:

All of those were more one sided. None of those teams won a game on a buzzer beating fadeaway 3. I also listed 2 sweeps, just making sure you can read. 

And yet they won 4 of 5. Did you watch the series? How many total minutes did the nuggets lead? How many minutes did they lead in the 4 games they lost?

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hobbes2702

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Posted
18 minutes ago, Llogg said:

Lakers are better than Nuggets, but to say it's not close is totally disingenuous. It is likewise disingenuous to ignore the preferential treatment Lebron gets from the refs and league in general. Did we forget that the Lakers needed a miracle 3 from Davis to win game 2? Let's also recognize that without invoking conspiracy theories it is still worth noting that the team that attempted more free throws won every single game in the series. For the series the margin on FT attempts was +17 Lakers. The point differential for the entire series was +22 Lakers. At a team average 80% from the stripe, the free throw discrepancy gave the Lakers roughly 14 points. This means the entire series not impacted  by the refs implicit biases was decided by 8 points. That hardly speaks to some overwhelming dominance. The Lakers are better. The Lakers and especially Lebron got the benefit of the doubt from the refs more often than not. Denver is close. All of these things can be simultaneously true.

I wonder if the Lakers take more FTs because their two best players live at the rim?

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SilasCoade

SilasCoade 2620

Posted
Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

I wonder if the Lakers take more FTs because their two best players live at the rim?

Which team would you describe as the more "physical" team? If the more physical team is shooting more free throws then they are being inherently favored. I also don't accept your premise that Davis and James live at the rim. They don't. Lakers took 38 shots in the paint, almost exactly half their 77 FGA last game. Denver took 47 shots in the paint, a little more than half their 90 FGA that game.

 

EDIT:

Not going to go back through every game and count, but it actually a cursory look at the shot charts looks like LA takes a lot more long 2s than the Nuggets, which makes sense as that is what my sense was of where Davis and Lebron made the most money.

Edited by Llogg
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hobbes2702

hobbes2702 12826

Posted
Posted
Just now, Llogg said:

Which team would you describe as the more "physical" team? If the more physical team is shooting more free throws then they are being inherently favored. I also don't accept your premise that Davis and James live at the rim. They don't. Lakers took 38 shots in the paint, almost exactly half their 77 FGA last game. Denver took 47 shots in the paint, a little more than half their 90 FGA that game.

That isn’t true at all. Physicality does not automatically lead to FTs. That’s asinine. 
 

Shots in the paint are not the same as shots at the rim.

Anthony Davis was 7th in the league in FTA. Lebron was 18. Jokic is the top FTA guy for the Nuggets and he comes in at 43.

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SilasCoade

SilasCoade 2620

Posted
Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

That isn’t true at all. Physicality does not automatically lead to FTs. That’s asinine. 
 

Shots in the paint are not the same as shots at the rim.

Anthony Davis was 7th in the league in FTA. Lebron was 18. Jokic is the top FTA guy for the Nuggets and he comes in at 43.

Physical defense is fouling and getting away with it. If the same refs are calling both ends of the floor and one team is more physical than the other, then they should end up crossing the line (wherever the refs arbitrarily drew the line) more often. The Lakers were clearly the more physical team on defense and should have been called for many more fouls. And feel free to go back and count the shots at the rim to disprove my point. I don't think the difference is meaningful for a discussion of foul calls, but go off.

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hobbes2702

hobbes2702 12826

Posted
Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Llogg said:

Physical defense is fouling and getting away with it. If the same refs are calling both ends of the floor and one team is more physical than the other, then they should end up crossing the line (wherever the refs arbitrarily drew the line) more often. The Lakers were clearly the more physical team on defense and should have been called for many more fouls. And feel free to go back and count the shots at the rim to disprove my point. I don't think the difference is meaningful for a discussion of foul calls, but go off.

No it isn’t and I’m sorry but that reads like someone who has never played.

If you think the Nuggets get to the rim at the same level as the Lakers then you have not been watching basketball. I dunno what else to tell you. I’m a fucking Nuggets fan more than any other team in the league. They run an offense that lives at the elbow more often than not. They get paint shots sure but they do not attack the rim like AD and Lebron and I honestly cannot believe you’re even making that argument.

FYI the Lakers this season take about 32% of their shots 0-3ft. The Nuggets about 28%. The Lakers also have the highest shooting percentage in the league at the rim with a .723.

Edited by hobbes2702
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SilasCoade

SilasCoade 2620

Posted
Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

No it isn’t and I’m sorry but that reads like someone who has never played.

If you think the Nuggets get to the rim at the same level as the Lakers then you have not been watching basketball. I dunno what else to tell you. I’m a fucking Nuggets fan more than any other team in the league. They run an offense that lives at the elbow more often than not. They get paint shots sure but they do not attack the rim like AD and Lebron and I honestly cannot believe you’re even making that argument.

FYI the Lakers this season take about 32% of their shots 0-3ft. The Nuggets about 28%.

I played plenty and I feel confident that even post spinal cord injury I could still bury you in turn around jumpers, lol.

So one more shot in 25 is "making a living"? Oooookaayyy.

Edited by Llogg
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hobbes2702

hobbes2702 12826

Posted
Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, Llogg said:

I played plenty and I feel confident that even post spinal cord injury I could still bury you in turn around jumpers, lol.

So one more shot in 25 is "making a living"? Oooookaayyy.

Well I’m not challenging you to play I’m challenging your understanding the game.

The Lakers also lead the league in percentage of dunks at almost 1%. The Nuggets are just over half a percent. It’s almost like attacking the rim gets you fouled more. And wouldn’t you know it the Lakers attempt lore layups too. Hmmm.

Edited by hobbes2702
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SilasCoade

SilasCoade 2620

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

Well I’m not challenging you to play I’m challenging your understanding the game.

The Lakers also lead the league in percentage of dunks at almost 1%. The Nuggets are just over half a percent. It’s almost like attacking the rim gets you fouled more. And wouldn’t you know it the Lakers attempt lore layups too. Hmmm.

But they didn't shoot 1% more FTs soooo...

 

Look, being physical to prevent a guy getting position is great. Once a guy has the ball and is going to the basket or attempting a shot, being physical is a foul. I think that's pretty basic. The Lakers were more physical in the latter way. As anyone watching the games could attest.

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hobbes2702

hobbes2702 12826

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Llogg said:

But they didn't shoot 1% more FTs soooo...

 

Look, being physical to prevent a guy getting position is great. Once a guy has the ball and is going to the basket or attempting a shot, being physical is a foul. I think that's pretty basic. The Lakers were more physical in the latter way. As anyone watching the games could attest.

I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make. The Lakers were the more physical team on offense and defense. That doesn’t automatically lead to FTs and never has anywhere. The Lakers also attack the rim more often which does lead to more FTs and always has. 
Does Lebron get more star treatment? Sure. He’s a star. He also plays a game that allows him to get to the line more often. The Nuggets don’t play that way and never have. It’s why the are one of the league leaders in shots from 3-10ft and 10-16ft for the last three seasons

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SilasCoade

SilasCoade 2620

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14 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make. The Lakers were the more physical team on offense and defense. That doesn’t automatically lead to FTs and never has anywhere. The Lakers also attack the rim more often which does lead to more FTs and always has. 
Does Lebron get more star treatment? Sure. He’s a star. He also plays a game that allows him to get to the line more often. The Nuggets don’t play that way and never have. It’s why the are one of the league leaders in shots from 3-10ft and 10-16ft for the last three seasons

My point is that the Lakers and specifically Lebron got preferential treatment. I don't think that's going out on a limb.

The logical chain:

1) foul calls are enforced arbitrarily by refs

2) assuming internal consistency for a given ref one would expect the team that initiates contact on defense more to be closer to crossing that arbitrary line

3) it was obvious the Lakers were initiating contact more

4) therefore they should have been called for more fouls leading to more FTs for Denver

5) the opposite situation occurred, which can only be explained by negating the assumption in point 2.

 

My only other point was that this free throw discrepancy (even if random and not truly an intentional favoring of one team over the other) accounted for most of the ultimate differential between these two teams. The Nuggets are not better than the Lakers, but it's not as wide a gap as some here have stated.

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hobbes2702

hobbes2702 12826

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Posted
1 minute ago, Llogg said:

My point is that the Lakers and specifically Lebron got preferential treatment. I don't think that's going out on a limb.

The logical chain:

1) foul calls are enforced arbitrarily by refs

2) assuming internal consistency for a given ref one would expect the team that initiates contact on defense more to be closer to crossing that arbitrary line

3) it was obvious the Lakers were initiating contact more

4) therefore they should have been called for more fouls leading to more FTs for Denver

5) the opposite situation occurred, which can only be explained by negating the assumption in point 2.

 

My only other point was that this free throw discrepancy (even if random and not truly an intentional favoring of one team over the other) accounted for most of the ultimate differential between these two teams. The Nuggets are not better than the Lakers, but it's not as wide a gap as some here have stated.

This is fair and I don’t disagree. My only disagreement is with your last section. The Nuggets lead for less than one quarter of basketball other than the game they won. That’s it. You can blame the officials for that if you want but in reality they simply don’t have the horses to compete consistently with the Lakers. The series was closer than I gave them credit for upthread however it was still a blowout. It was competitive but not close.

2 minutes ago, ztejas said:

You're just making his point for him...

Actually I’m not if you had bothered to have any understanding of the stats.

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BradInATX

BradInATX 9208

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I hated the 2000s Lakers because Kobe and Phil and Shaq were arrogant and good and talked a lot of shit and were a fierce adversary for the Spurs. Because their fans have the cockiness that comes with that kind of history. 

I hate the 2020 Lakers because they're a manufactured team featuring a guy on his fourth team of his career who already won with a different super team, and a "superstar" who had never won anything and forced his way out of his existing contract to go coattail LeBron. And a bunch of ring chasers who were alsorans their entire career. I don't actually have any hate for N'Sync or those teeny bopper pre-fabricated Korean bands that are popular now. They're just sort of eye-roll-worthy.

It's a different kind of hate. I won't actually be mad if/when the Lakers win like I was back in the 2000s. It'll be more of a "meh, lame" reaction. It's a lesser kind of hate. I liked the old kind better.

Edited by BradInATX
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SilasCoade

SilasCoade 2620

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Posted
2 hours ago, hobbes2702 said:

This is fair and I don’t disagree. My only disagreement is with your last section. The Nuggets lead for less than one quarter of basketball other than the game they won. That’s it. You can blame the officials for that if you want but in reality they simply don’t have the horses to compete consistently with the Lakers. The series was closer than I gave them credit for upthread however it was still a blowout. It was competitive but not close.

Actually I’m not if you had bothered to have any understanding of the stats.

That's exactly what I'm not doing. I'm saying that the officials did not determine the outcome, but that they did artificially inflate the gap.

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BradInATX

BradInATX 9208

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, InkaUtexas said:

well man, I did not. Fuck everything Miami (except the hotties in the Grove) so I am in. 

 

Hell, want to make it a pitcher at the Posse East? 

Yeah, you're on. May be awhile, we moved to New Braunfels recently and I have a third-trimester pregnant wife, so I probably won't be a member of society for another six months, let alone get up to Austin for R&R. But no rush, we'll settle it up eventually. 

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hobbes2702

hobbes2702 12826

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Posted (edited)

Where’s everyone at with Tatum after this series? I came away thinking I was down on him but his numbers were better than I realized. Just still seems to be taking the same bad shots too often. I just don’t know that I see the MVP caliber ceiling that it seems everyone seems to have for him

Edited by hobbes2702
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Message Board User

Message Board User 12389

Posted
Posted
5 hours ago, hobbes2702 said:

Where’s everyone at with Tatum after this series? I came away thinking I was down on him but his numbers were better than I realized. Just still seems to be taking the same bad shots too often. I just don’t know that I see the MVP caliber ceiling that it seems everyone seems to have for him

He’s certainly no Markelle Fultz.

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Message Board User

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As much as I dislike the guy it is impossible to be unimpressed with the job Pat Riley has done as GM.  
 

To the Finals with 3 almost completely different teams after two separate tear downs and rebuilds?  Well done.

I kind of hope he drops the “smiling faces with hidden agendas” line in the next few days.

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Js1

Js1 85109

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1 hour ago, d2o said:

Celts had multiple collapses like that in these playoffs.    They were up a few late and then not only end up losing but by double digits.   They dont execute well in pressure situations.

102-103 Boston with 5:40 left  3 min later - 116-102 Boston  

23-10 run to finish it for Miami. And Boston scored a bunch of garbage buckets. It was just shocking how fast it escalated 

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shadow_operative

shadow_operative 15932

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Neither LeBron nor AD "lives at the rim", and seriously- the Lakers got a bunch of favorable calls. If you watched the games you saw it. Doesn't mean it was a damn conspiracy, but it did happen. The Lakers entire team leaned on the officials (led by LeBron, the whiniest, most petulant all-time great athlete), and not that it's anything new, it worked. how much of LBJ and his team's whining affected the calls, i don't know. but don't sit here and tell you watched those games and saw fair officiating. the Lakers were favored by the officials. 

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shadow_operative

shadow_operative 15932

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seriously- LeBron is approaching the the MJ, Ruth, Gretzky, Ali, Pelé pantheon of all time great athletes and icons, and he whines like such a fucking baby it's embarrassing. you could make a ten hour highlight reel of his eyes bulging out of his head as he screams and gesticulates in incredulity that he didn't get a foul call on what replays showed was a clean block. fuck i want the Lakers to lose so bad just because of this. 

Edited by shadow_operative
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usmc0331horn

usmc0331horn 940

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6 minutes ago, shadow_operative said:

seriously- LeBron is approaching the the MJ, Ruth, Gretzky, Ali, Pelé pantheon of all time great athletes and icons, and he whines like such a fucking baby it's embarrassing. you could make a ten hour highlight reel of his eyes bulging out if his head as he screams and gesticulates in incredulity gang he didn't get a foul call on what replays showed was a clean block. fuck i want the Lakers to lose so bad just because of this. 

And he's actually better than all of them. What a bitchass response.

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totallynotabuttpirate

totallynotabuttpirate 5342

Posted
Posted
8 minutes ago, shadow_operative said:

seriously- LeBron is approaching the the MJ, Ruth, Gretzky, Ali, Pelé pantheon of all time great athletes and icons, and he whines like such a fucking baby it's embarrassing. you could make a ten hour highlight reel of his eyes bulging out if his head as he screams and gesticulates in incredulity gang he didn't get a foul call on what replays showed was a clean block. fuck i want the Lakers to lose so bad just because of this. 

Your posts about LeBron and the Lakers sound very objective and reasonable. 

For every call he gets, there's 2 or 3 more no calls on clear fouls because "he's so big and strong". If he acted like he got shot everytime ala Harden, he'd be going to the line 25 times a game. 

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