2019-2020 NBA Season Thread

[youdunnf'dup 2147]

GG Heat 

 

[Thatguy 8495]

1 hour ago, ztejas said:

And they avoided Luka, Kawhi, Giannis, Curry and KD. 

Not taking away from their championship but it's been kind of a snoozefest run for them. Portland bent over easily and seemed to be out of gas, the Rockets' 2nd best player is a past his prime Westbrook that they would have been better without. The Nuggets are a little young and got into some bad situations with foul trouble. 

Obviously this series isn't over - the Heat are still dangerous. But their best player is a top 12 guy on most nights and they have zero Finals experience outside Spo. (No I'm not counting the corpses of Haslem and Iggy) 

  I don't get it. I was told that Lebron couldn't run through the West the same way he did the East.

  Look, the West teams were in dog fights all the way to the Western Conference finals. The only team that didn't struggle was the Lakers. They were just head and shoulders better than those other squads. Take them out of the equation and the WCC is likely a 6 or 7 games series. Maybe just maybe they are that good.

[ztejas 43263]

50 minutes ago, naija said:

Was it your point when you were stating a few posts ago that the Heat were the better team going in?

Oh you mean before game 1 was played? Yeah, maybe I was wrong. I don't know, I haven't watched as much ball as usual during this playoffs. Or this NBA season as a whole. I've probably lost my edge. 

Then again, it's been hard to predict what will happen in the bubble. 

12 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

I don't get it. I was told that Lebron couldn't run through the West the same way he did the East.

Cool

[staboner 4957]

2 hours ago, youdunnf'dup said:

GG Heat 

 

god that sucks for that dude. play for a decade to get here and this bubble and shit and get injured in the first game. damn.

[Mitch Cumsteen 18523]

Despite the blowout, I would have still given the Heat a punchers chance in this series just because I can't see the Lakers shooting the three like that again. KCP has been on fire the entire playoffs but he, Morris, Green, Caruso and Rondo combining to go 14/23 (my math may be a little off) from behind the line in the first half is straight flame throwing. There's the typical game 1 over reaction but without Dragic, the Heat have no hope. They also had big problems dealing with the Lakers size. They were going to have problems to begin with but if Bam is not 100%, LA is really going to have their way with them. 

Among the weirdest story lines of this playoffs is Rondo becoming a deadly three point shooter. If that dude had been able to shoot it like that his entire career he would have been a first ballot hall of famer. It's just mind boggling to me that you used to not have to cover him outside of about 12 feet and now he's all of a sudden shooting >40% behind the arc. All the while still only hitting 65% of his free throws. How does that happen? 

[aggie08 21431]

2 hours ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

Among the weirdest story lines of this playoffs is Rondo becoming a deadly three point shooter. If that dude had been able to shoot it like that his entire career he would have been a first ballot hall of famer. It's just mind boggling to me that you used to not have to cover him outside of about 12 feet and now he's all of a sudden shooting >40% behind the arc. All the while still only hitting 65% of his free throws. How does that happen? 

He's been sneaky good (okay, sneaky competent) ever since he left Boston. He's made over 35% of his threes while not wearing a green uniform, and over 41% in each of his last two postseasons. Fucking Playoff Rondo.

As you say, Boston probably wins more than one ring had he figured this out earlier. I remember the Heat teams literally putting his defender below the free throw line up play free safety.

Arguably more impressive than Jason Kidd's shooting transformation, though on much fewer attempts.

Edited October 1, 2020 by aggie08

[d2o 1602]

Man, that thing flipped quickly.    Now with Dragic, Bam and Jimmy either out or hurting this will be a tough run for the Heat to make this competitive.    I'm not entirely sure why they went with Crowder on AD.   What's the point in having a guy like Bam if you aren't gonna have him guard the main big man threat on the other team?

[usmc0331horn 940]

I think it was pretty obvious that Davis was likely going to be the MVP and there would be no way the Heat could stop he or LBJ. The NBA Finals are all too predictable sometimes. Boston and Miami have rosters of really good players but no superstars and LA has two of them.

[MNLonghornFUKM 8799]

So Duncan and Tyler need to hit 8-10 3s each and a Miami has a chance

[usmc0331horn 940]

2 minutes ago, MNLonghornFUKM said:

So Duncan and Tyler need to hit 8-10 3s each and a Miami has a chance

They've got this.

[Wulaw Horn 18980]

8 hours ago, aggie08 said:

And to get a jumpstart on the inevitable debate du jour in about a week, if I wanted to make a LeBron > MJ argument, my first, second, and third points would be about availability.

Just going to give you 29, 9 and 7 and never miss a big game, seemingly forever.

 

I never like to make up my mind until a guys career is all the way over but the LBJ argument vs MJ has never looked very promising. As great as LBJ was/is his peak is just lower than MJ’s and that’s usually how these things get sorted- provided the peak lasts for a reasonable amount of time which MJ’s did. 
but, at some point in time you have to acknowledge that if LBJ is awesome for 20 years while Mike played ~14 that has to count for something. 

[d2o 1602]

12 minutes ago, MNLonghornFUKM said:

So Duncan and Tyler need to hit 8-10 3s each and a Miami has a chance

What wasn't mentioned much is how the Lakers defended both of them.   They didnt let either have clean looks.    Especially Duncan Robinson.   They followed him hard on those handoffs that he normally gets good looks on.   They know he isn't going to drive on those so they dont have to switch them.    Herro is going to get off his shots but they did a very good job at forcing him to rush

[Juicy 723]

I had to turn the game off in the first quarter. Miami was up 12 and then on back to back to back possessions the refs gifted the Lakers 3 calls in a row and the lead was cut to 5. That is bad for the NBA. I want to see players competing with each other. Yesterday Miami had to battle the Lakers and the Zebras. 

Hopefully the injuries aren't too bad for Miami and they can figure out a way to claw back into it. 

[BradInATX 9208]

We need the Warriors to get back to form next year. Everyone outside of LA will be rooting for them. They're infinitely more likeable than the Lakers and at least organically built.

[d2o 1602]

1 minute ago, BradInATX said:

We need the Warriors to get back to form next year. Everyone outside of LA will be rooting for them. They're infinitely more likeable than the Lakers and at least organically built.

No team with Draymond is more likeable.   Doesn't matter to who they are compared

[BradInATX 9208]

No team with Draymond is more likeable.   Doesn't matter to who they are compared

Draymond is a chump but I have always liked his game. He does all the little stuff and he's still less detestable than Dwight.

[d2o 1602]

2 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

3 minutes ago, d2o said:

No team with Draymond is more likeable.   Doesn't matter to who they are compared

Draymond is a chump but I have always liked his game. He does all the little stuff and he's still less detestable than Dwight.

I've always liked Dwight.   He's an idiot but he doesnt fuck up watching a game for me like Draymond does with all his fucking whining and bitching.

[ztejas 43263]

56 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

I never like to make up my mind until a guys career is all the way over but the LBJ argument vs MJ has never looked very promising. As great as LBJ was/is his peak is just lower than MJ’s and that’s usually how these things get sorted- provided the peak lasts for a reasonable amount of time which MJ’s did. 
but, at some point in time you have to acknowledge that if LBJ is awesome for 20 years while Mike played ~14 that has to count for something. 

His chance to overtake MJ is gone, imo. MJ was the clear-cut best player on six fucking title teams. LeBron will wind up with 3 unless something insane happens. There are nights where Davis is clearly the best player on the floor and he is trending towards FMVP. 

But there are things that LeBron will go down as having achieved at a higher clip. Gun to my head if I have to pick one guy in NBA history to take a bunch of bums to the playoffs or get a middling team to the Finals then I take LeBron 10 times out of 10. But gun to my head I need one player in a Finals series to move the needle more than anyone else and it's MJ and I don't have to think about it at all. 

(i.e. would you rather have Peyton Manning or Tom Brady?)

LeBron vs. Kareem is a more interesting debate, imo. People gift LeBron 2nd GOAT without enough discussion.

Edited October 1, 2020 by ztejas

[ztejas 43263]

I'm not entirely sure the Heat are done without Dragic. We will see. He was their leading scorer but a lot of his play seems replaceable if they can dig deep and have some of the 6-8 guys step up. It's not like losing Chris Paul or Stockton.

[d2o 1602]

2 minutes ago, ztejas said:

His chance to overtake MJ is gone, imo. MJ was the clear-cut best player on six fucking title teams. LeBron will wind up with 3 unless something insane happens. There are nights where Davis is clearly the best player on the floor and he is trending towards FMVP. 

But there are things that LeBron will go down as having achieved at a higher clip. Gun to my head if I have to pick one guy in NBA history to take a bunch of bums to the playoffs or get a middling team to the Finals then I take LeBron 10 times out of 10. But gun to my head I need one player in a Finals series to move the needle more than anyone else and it's MJ and I don't have to think about it at all. 

LeBron vs. Kareem is a more interesting debate, imo. People gift LeBron 2nd GOAT without enough discussion.

Cap has always been in 4 man GOAT discussion.   People always leave him out for some reason.   Magic, Cap, MJ, LBJ.   I will listen to an argument for any of them.    No one else.

 

[d2o 1602]

1 minute ago, ztejas said:

I'm not entirely sure the Heat are done without Dragic. We will see. He was their leading scorer but a lot of his play seems replaceable if they can dig deep and have some of the 6-8 guys step up. It's not like losing Chris Paul or Stockton.

He was playing GREAT ball for them in these playoffs.   He isn't a full time PG like CP3 or Stockton put his contributions will be sorely missed.    If Nunn can get back to where he was prior to his COVID bout it will help but Dragic not playing would be a huge blow.

[Wulaw Horn 18980]

6 minutes ago, ztejas said:

His chance to overtake MJ is gone, imo. MJ was the clear-cut best player on six fucking title teams. LeBron will wind up with 3 unless something insane happens. There are nights where Davis is clearly the best player on the floor and he is trending towards FMVP. 

But there are things that LeBron will go down as having achieved at a higher clip. Gun to my head if I have to pick one guy in NBA history to take a bunch of bums to the playoffs or get a middling team to the Finals then I take LeBron 10 times out of 10. But gun to my head I need one player in a Finals series to move the needle more than anyone else and it's MJ and I don't have to think about it at all. 

(i.e. would you rather have Peyton Manning or Tom Brady?)

LeBron vs. Kareem is a more interesting debate, imo. People gift LeBron 2nd GOAT without enough discussion.

I think it’s LeBron and I don’t think it’s super close. And I agree with you that Kareem is bizarrely overlooked in the GOAT conversations. He was really really really good for like 23 years, and best in the league for like a solid decade. 
that’s the kind of career LeBron is working on- but I think he was slightly more accomplished before the second banana phase of the career started. But I expect lebron to be a plus player into his 40’s just like Kareem. 

[ztejas 43263]

4 minutes ago, d2o said:

Cap has always been in 4 man GOAT discussion.   People always leave him out for some reason.   Magic, Cap, MJ, LBJ.   I will listen to an argument for any of them.    No one else.

 

Me and you have the same top 4. I've slotted Magic 2nd a bunch in past discussions but I think I would have him 4th the more I learn about all of this stuff. I agree that that top 4 is pretty set in stone. All of those guys are just a touch above Duncan and Bird imo, who would be my 5th and 6th off the board. Then Russell and Wilt. Then Hakeem and Kobe. Then the Shaq, West, ORob tier which Durant will enter soon if he can make some noise with the Nets. 

[BradInATX 9208]

I'm not entirely sure the Heat are done without Dragic. We will see. He was their leading scorer but a lot of his play seems replaceable if they can dig deep and have some of the 6-8 guys step up. It's not like losing Chris Paul or Stockton.

I think they're done. Bam was overwhelmed among the trees down low and doesn't look ready to be the focal point in this series. They just smothered the Heat shooters outside. Their only counter to that is a slashing driving and kicking game and the two players that can facilitate that are out for the series and probably on a gimpy leg.

 

I think they'll represent themselves better defensively but I don't see where the offense comes from.

 

They're toast.

 

[BradInATX 9208]

Also, it's MJ and it's not close. Come on.

[Wulaw Horn 18980]

7 minutes ago, d2o said:

Cap has always been in 4 man GOAT discussion.   People always leave him out for some reason.   Magic, Cap, MJ, LBJ.   I will listen to an argument for any of them.    No one else.

 

Disagree with Magic being in and Russell being out. 

MJ

LBJ

Kareem

Russell. 

Magic

thats my top 5 in order. I can’t really put anyone else in order but I will go with:

Wilt, Bird, Hakeem, Shaq and Robert Horry in some order. Horry of course being the second greatest Ringzz player ever behind Russell. Sure I forgot someone in my top 10 that was super obvious thus why I left

my top 10 at only 9 players. And #10 isn’t Kobe. He’s in the 11-15 range for me with KD. If KD comes back at 90% and gets another ring he can be top 10 all time I think. Maybe pass Bird. 
 

[d2o 1602]

3 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

I think it’s LeBron and I don’t think it’s super close. And I agree with you that Kareem is bizarrely overlooked in the GOAT conversations. He was really really really good for like 23 years, and best in the league for like a solid decade. 
that’s the kind of career LeBron is working on- but I think he was slightly more accomplished before the second banana phase of the career started. But I expect lebron to be a plus player into his 40’s just like Kareem. 

Yep, LBJ will (as long as he wants to keep playing) end up with 40k pts/10k rebs/10k asts.    Some guys dont like compiled stats but those numbers alone are fucking nuts.    Couple them with 3 (or more) titles 4 MVPs and all the other accolades its hard to imagine how anyone could knock his career.

[Wulaw Horn 18980]

3 minutes ago, ztejas said:

Me and you have the same top 4. I've slotted Magic 2nd a bunch in past discussions but I think I would have him 4th the more I learn about all of this stuff. I agree that that top 4 is pretty set in stone. All of those guys are just a touch above Duncan and Bird imo, who would be my 5th and 6th off the board. Then Russell and Wilt. Then Hakeem and Kobe. Then the Shaq, West, ORob tier which Durant will enter soon if he can make some noise with the Nets. 

Duncan. That was the one I was missing in my top 10. Thanks. He’s probably 6 for me. 

[d2o 1602]

8 minutes ago, ztejas said:

Me and you have the same top 4. I've slotted Magic 2nd a bunch in past discussions but I think I would have him 4th the more I learn about all of this stuff. I agree that that top 4 is pretty set in stone. All of those guys are just a touch above Duncan and Bird imo, who would be my 5th and 6th off the board. Then Russell and Wilt. Then Hakeem and Kobe. Then the Shaq, West, ORob tier which Durant will enter soon if he can make some noise with the Nets. 

The only knock anyone could come up with on Magic was his career being cut short.    He was still a MVP level player who led his understaffed team to the Finals again when he had to bow out.   He was LBJ before LBJ in being able to take just about any roster to the Finals.

Edited October 1, 2020 by d2o

[d2o 1602]

3 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Disagree with Magic being in and Russell being out. 

MJ

LBJ

Kareem

Russell. 

Magic

thats my top 5 in order. I can’t really put anyone else in order but I will go with:

Wilt, Bird, Hakeem, Shaq and Robert Horry in some order. Horry of course being the second greatest Ringzz player ever behind Russell. Sure I forgot someone in my top 10 that was super obvious thus why I left

my top 10 at only 9 players. And #10 isn’t Kobe. He’s in the 11-15 range for me with KD. If KD comes back at 90% and gets another ring he can be top 10 all time I think. Maybe pass Bird. 
 

I LOVE him and EVERYTHING Russell stands for but there are WAY too many "buts" to put him in that discussion.   

[d2o 1602]

6 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

Also, it's MJ and it's not close. Come on.

Just depends so yeah its plenty close.

Edited October 1, 2020 by d2o

[Mitch Cumsteen 18523]

They semi-alluded to it in the broadcast last night, but you can argue that LeBron or Kareem had the greatest career while MJ is the goat. It's a slightly different argument. 

[BradInATX 9208]

GOAT is not a longevity award. Once MJ hit his prime, he won a championship every single year until he retired. Winning the East 10 times is not an accomplishment worth even mentioning in the discussion.
Can you imagine Jordan losing in the Finals not once but twice with two other Hall of Famers on his team while in his prime? Can you imagine Jordan mentally checking out of a playoff series like LBJ did multiple times most notably the 2014 finals? C'mon. That's a joke.
The discussion is whether or not LBJ is #2. He is, IMO. A very very distant second.

[BradInATX 9208]

They semi-alluded to it in the broadcast last night, but you can argue that LeBron or Kareem had the greatest career while MJ is the goat. It's a slightly different argument. 

This. You can certainly make the case that Bron had a better career. I might even agree with this. But "GOAT"? Nah. Not even a discussion.

[d2o 1602]

Just now, BradInATX said:

GOAT is not a longevity award. Once MJ hit his prime, he won a championship every single year until he retired. Winning the East 10 times is not an accomplishment worth even mentioning in the discussion.
Can you imagine Jordan losing in the Finals not once but twice with two other Hall of Famers on his team while in his prime? Can you imagine Jordan mentally checking out of a playoff series like LBJ did multiple times most notably the 2014 finals? C'mon. That's a joke.
The discussion is whether or not LBJ is #2. He is, IMO. A very very distant second.

GOAT is all encompassing.   I dont have to imagine MJ losing BEFORE the Finals in his prime.   It happened.   Multiple times.   He didnt start winning the east until all the big dogs were done.   People tend to overrate the teams the Bulls beat particularly in the east.   The only good team they beat was the Pistons and maybe the Magic, but they were severely flawed.

[BradInATX 9208]

3 minutes ago, d2o said:

GOAT is all encompassing.   I dont have to imagine MJ losing BEFORE the Finals in his prime.   It happened.   Multiple times.   He didnt start winning the east until all the big dogs were done.   People tend to overrate the teams the Bulls beat particularly in the east.   The only good team they beat was the Pistons and maybe the Magic, but they were severely flawed.

The Jazz were infinitely better than the Mavericks team that out-toughed and out-gritted LeBron. 

Can you imagine Jordan losing to goofy ass Dirk Nowitzki and that Mavericks team in the finals? You can't because it never would have happened.

I guess you're forgetting that Jordan beat both Magic and Bird on multiple occasions too?

 

Edited October 1, 2020 by BradInATX

[d2o 1602]

1 minute ago, BradInATX said:

The Jazz were infinitely better than the Mavericks team that out-toughed and out-gritted LeBron. 

and the Warriors and Spurs were better than any team MJ beat.

[UpperWestside 6136]

I really have enjoyed watching this Heat team play in the playoffs. They mesh well together and play hard on both ends of the floor. Seeing Butler able to shed the undeserved label of malcontent this year was cool as well. He found a home in Miami and in retrospect it maybe should not have been as surprising for many people that Miami is where he would fit in since he and Riles share very similar views on how each wants the game to be played.

That said I have been a Lakers fan since I was seven and there is one thing etched into my mind that I can still see clear as day. In the 80’s Boston would have a thing at the scorer’s table that always listed the number of World Championships. When I first saw it the thing said 16. I knew the Lakers were well behind, but I wanted to see my favorite team catch and surpass them. When I first saw the banner the Lakers were sitting on nine. Now my guys are on the precipice of tying them at seventeen. Makes me feel a little old to see them three wins away from being equal in titles for the first time since the early 1960’s.

[BradInATX 9208]

and the Warriors and Spurs were better than any team MJ beat.

The Warriors yeah, of course. Notice that I don't fault LBJ for losing to them. One of the greatest teams ever assembled.
2014 Spurs yeah. 2013 Spurs.. nah.

[Sbbruin 21724]

20 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

Also, it's MJ and it's not close. Come on.

If you look at his number of playoff games, ranking in every significant category in the playoffs (will likely be #1 in almost every one by the time he’s done) and I’d argue it is close.

[BradInATX 9208]

If you look at his number of playoff games, ranking in every significant category in the playoffs (will likely be #1 in almost every one by the time he’s done) and I’d argue it is close.

You're talking longevity. LeBron is already 200+ games ahead of Jordan.

[Sbbruin 21724]

4 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

7 minutes ago, Sbbruin said:

If you look at his number of playoff games, ranking in every significant category in the playoffs (will likely be #1 in almost every one by the time he’s done) and I’d argue it is close.

You're talking longevity. LeBron is already 200+ games ahead of Jordan.

And that counts for something

[Vic Mackey 46935]

Oh look, the tired old LBJ vs MJ arguments. Who the fuck cares. Both players were the best in their respective eras. Why do people feel the need to interject MJ constantly when Lebron is still playing? He hasn't played in about 2 decades. Get over it.

[BradInATX 9208]

Just now, Sbbruin said:

And that counts for something

I don't disagree. Like I said, I think you could absolutely make the case that LeBron has had the better career. The only thing Jordan would have in that argument is the 6/6 vs. 3/10 (or whatever it is) thing. And I guess if you want to say that your definition of "GOAT" is more of a career accomplishment, that's reasonable. But to me, "Greatest of All Time" means "who was the greatest player ever in their prime" and there is no sane person on the planet that would consider prime LBJ to be a better player than prime MJ. I assume that those of you making the LBJ case would agree with that because if not you are on drugs.

[Juicy 723]

53 minutes ago, d2o said:

I've always liked Dwight.   He's an idiot but he doesnt fuck up watching a game for me like Draymond does with all his fucking whining and bitching.

Compared to Lebron? I am so sick of his tayshaun prince face after every call/non call. 

[Wulaw Horn 18980]

20 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

The Jazz were infinitely better than the Mavericks team that out-toughed and out-gritted LeBron. 

Can you imagine Jordan losing to goofy ass Dirk Nowitzki and that Mavericks team in the finals? You can't because it never would have happened.

I guess you're forgetting that Jordan beat both Magic and Bird on multiple occasions too?

 

It’s really the only stain on LbJ’s resume. 

[Wulaw Horn 18980]

9 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

I don't disagree. Like I said, I think you could absolutely make the case that LeBron has had the better career. The only thing Jordan would have in that argument is the 6/6 vs. 3/10 (or whatever it is) thing. And I guess if you want to say that your definition of "GOAT" is more of a career accomplishment, that's reasonable. But to me, "Greatest of All Time" means "who was the greatest player ever in their prime" and there is no sane person on the planet that would consider prime LBJ to be a better player than prime MJ. I assume that those of you making the LBJ case would agree with that because if not you are on drugs.

I think you overstate prime or I could argue for Hakeem or Shaq or someone like that with a couple three monster years in a row. Longevity matters. Call it 80/20 toward prime imo. You seem to be arguing for 100% prime. That’s too much imo. 

[Patrick Bateman 3903]

9 hours ago, youdunnf'dup said:

GG Heat 

 

[d2o 1602]

23 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

The Jazz were infinitely better than the Mavericks team that out-toughed and out-gritted LeBron. 

Can you imagine Jordan losing to goofy ass Dirk Nowitzki and that Mavericks team in the finals? You can't because it never would have happened.

I guess you're forgetting that Jordan beat both Magic and Bird on multiple occasions too?

 

Whoa????   When did MJ beat Bird?   He beat Magic once.   What are you on about?   

Yes, the Mavs loss was bad.   Its the only thing you can knock LBJ on.   But the saying that MJ was undefeated in the Finals while ignoring him losing before that makes it seem like you would rather someone lose BEFORE the Finals than IN the Finals.   That doesn't make sense.

If you want to look as LBJ having the "worst" loss you also have to give him credit for the far "better" wins.  Right?

[BradInATX 9208]

1 minute ago, d2o said:

Whoa????   When did MJ beat Bird?   He beat Magic once.   What are you on about?   

Yes, the Mavs loss was bad.   Its the only thing you can knock LBJ on.   But the saying that MJ was undefeated in the Finals while ignoring him losing before that makes it seem like you would rather someone lose BEFORE the Finals than IN the Finals.   That doesn't make sense.

If you want to look as LBJ having the "worst" loss you also have to give him credit for the far "better" wins.  Right?

I would put LBJ's finals win at the top, and all of Jordan's above LBJ's other two.