2019-2020 NBA Season Thread

[Pam Cummings 9654]

The fact that people even feel the need to make the comparison tells you all you need to know. Just enjoy greatness while you can see it, folks.

 

Also, a title in Cleveland is worth 3 anywhere else.

[d2o 1602]

1 minute ago, Pam Cummings said:

The fact that people even feel the need to make the comparison tells you all you need to know. Just enjoy greatness while you can see it, folks.

 

Also, a title in Cleveland is worth 3 anywhere else.

Agree wholeheartedly with this.    People wont truly appreciate LBJ until long after he retires and that sucks.

[usmc0331horn 962]

1 hour ago, BradInATX said:

Also, it's MJ and it's not close. Come on.

It’s actually not at all.

[BradInATX 9208]

6 minutes ago, usmc0331horn said:

It’s actually not at all.

I mean we've been going back and forth talking accomplishments and facts for about two pages so surely you have more to add than this.

[conVINCEd 21469]

Once MJ figured it out, he never lost.  He didn’t have to take his talents anywhere to join up with Barkley and Ewing to break through and start winning titles.  That’s the difference between the two, and it overcomes any statistical advantage Lebron will achieve through longevity.

[ztejas 43526]

29 minutes ago, d2o said:

Its the only thing you can knock LBJ on

Eh. I can knock him on 2008 and 2009. He got shellacked in 2014 but the Heat were never winning that series, so I guess he gets a pass. Durant smoked him in 2018. 

32 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

I think you overstate prime or I could argue for Hakeem or Shaq or someone like that with a couple three monster years in a row.

Could you? Jordan has best year ever, best 2 year stretch, best 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 year stretch, best decade. 

Guys only start edging Jordan when you get to 13, 14, 15 year stretches. Which is a valid argument in LeBron's favor. But peak MJ was peak MJ. Prime MJ was prime MJ. No one has ever reached those heights. I'd be shocked if anyone does, frankly.

[d2o 1602]

Just now, conVINCEd said:

Once MJ figured it out, he never lost.  He didn’t have to take his talents anywhere to join up with Barkley and Ewing to break through and start winning titles.  That’s the difference between the two, and it overcomes any statistical advantage Lebron will achieve through longevity.

He didnt have to leave.   He had great management and coaching.   If Krause was as bad as the CLE brass MJ would either have left or not won nearly as much.   Even then it wasn't him "figuring it out"  It was Scottie Pippen becoming at worst the 3rd or 4th best player in the league.

[d2o 1602]

4 minutes ago, ztejas said:

Eh. I can knock him on 2008 and 2009. He got shellacked in 2014 but the Heat were never winning that series, so I guess he gets a pass. Durant smoked him in 2018. 

Could you? Jordan has best year ever, best 2 year stretch, best 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 year stretch, best decade. 

Guys only start edging Jordan when you get to 13, 14, 15 year stretches. Which is a valid argument in LeBron's favor. But peak MJ was peak MJ. Prime MJ was prime MJ. No one has ever reached those heights. I'd be shocked if anyone does, frankly.

You mean 2008 when Ilgauskas was the next best player on his team and they still went 7 with the eventual champ?   Or 2009 when he avg'd 38/8/8 with Mo Williams as the 2nd best player?

[BradInATX 9208]

6 minutes ago, d2o said:

He didnt have to leave.   He had great management and coaching.   If Krause was as bad as the CLE brass MJ would either have left or not won nearly as much.   Even then it wasn't him "figuring it out"  It was Scottie Pippen becoming at worst the 3rd or 4th best player in the league.

We just ignoring his tenure with the Heat? Three hall-of-famers, four if you count Ray Allen, hall-of-fame executive who was a hall-of-fame coach, and probable hall-of-fame coach.

Four years, two championships. The two failures were against a scrappy but very underpowered Dallas team that they never, ever should have lost to. And a 4-1 embarrassment at the hand of the Spurs where LeBron was visibly half-efforting by game 4.

Edited October 1, 2020 by BradInATX

[usmc0331horn 962]

6 minutes ago, conVINCEd said:

Once MJ figured it out, he never lost.  He didn’t have to take his talents anywhere to join up with Barkley and Ewing to break through and start winning titles.  That’s the difference between the two, and it overcomes any statistical advantage Lebron will achieve through longevity.

This argument is specious at best. LeBron had to leave because Cleveland was a dumpster fire of an organization yet he still carried them to NBA finals. Chicago did everything they could to make MJ happy for the most part and put a team around him that could win. If LeBron had that situation in CLeveland he would have stayed there his entire career and won 6-8 finals I would imagine. And his longevity is astounding. It's so weird to me that no matter what Jordan is the GOAT when LeBron hasn't even finished his career yet. I think people just really fetishize those 90s teams and Jordan playing on the same team for his entire career.

[d2o 1602]

Just now, BradInATX said:

We just ignoring his tenure with the Heat? Three hall-of-famers, four if you count Ray Allen, hall-of-fame executive who was a hall-of-fame coach, and probable hall-of-fame coach.

Four years, two championships.

you say this like its a bad thing...........and again they lost to a dynasty in SA.   The DAL loss was bad as I mentioned earlier.

[usmc0331horn 962]

1 minute ago, d2o said:

You mean 2008 when Ilgauskas was the next best player on his team and they still went 7 with the eventual champ?   Or 2009 when he avg'd 38/8/8 with Mo Williams as the 2nd best player?

People just hate LeBron. Why everyone loves Jordan who seems like an absolutely atrocious guy is beyond me.

[BradInATX 9208]

4 minutes ago, d2o said:

You mean 2008 when Ilgauskas was the next best player on his team and they still went 7 with the eventual champ?   Or 2009 when he avg'd 38/8/8 with Mo Williams as the 2nd best player?

I'm with you here. Those teams were garbage. Honestly dragging that 2007 team to the Finals might be one of his greatest achievements IMO.

Edited October 1, 2020 by BradInATX

[BradInATX 9208]

1 minute ago, d2o said:

you say this like its a bad thing...........and again they lost to a dynasty in SA.   The DAL loss was bad as I mentioned earlier.

No, it's not a bad thing of course, it was a counterpoint to your "Jordan had a great team and management and coaching", which he did. But so did LeBron in Miami.

[d2o 1602]

1 minute ago, usmc0331horn said:

This argument is specious at best. LeBron had to leave because Cleveland was a dumpster fire of an organization yet he still carried them to NBA finals. Chicago did everything they could to make MJ happy for the most part and put a team around him that could win. If LeBron had that situation in CLeveland he would have stayed there his entire career and won 6-8 finals I would imagine. And his longevity is astounding. It's so weird to me that no matter what Jordan is the GOAT when LeBron hasn't even finished his career yet. I think people just really fetishize those 90s teams and Jordan playing on the same team for his entire career.

I think two things are going on with this.   1) People tend to romanticize things from their youth and/or 2) People who are too young to have lived the everyday of that time.   Its how we get shit like the vast overrating of the Pacers and Knicks of that time.

[usmc0331horn 962]

Just now, BradInATX said:

No, it's not a bad thing of course, it was a counterpoint to your "Jordan had a great team and management and coaching", which he did. But so did LeBron in Miami.

For 4 years. And the first year had some growing pains for a new team which is normal. Imagine him having that management and great players around him for a decade or more. 

[d2o 1602]

Just now, BradInATX said:

No, it's not a bad thing of course, it was a counterpoint to your "Jordan had a great team and management and coaching", which he did. But so did LeBron in Miami.

And they went to 4 finals winning two.   Did they have to win every yr in order for it to be a success?

[BradInATX 9208]

4 minutes ago, usmc0331horn said:

People just hate LeBron. Why everyone loves Jordan who seems like an absolutely atrocious guy is beyond me.

Not at all.

I think the general consensus here is that LeBron is a pretty good dude and Jordan is a piece of shit. It's actually one of the few things we all agree on round these parts. Doesn't change the discussion, though.

Edited October 1, 2020 by BradInATX

[BradInATX 9208]

Just now, d2o said:

And they went to 4 finals winning two.   Did they have to win every yr in order for it to be a success?

Well yeah, if you're using Jordan as your measuring stick. 

[d2o 1602]

Just now, usmc0331horn said:

For 4 years. And the first year had some growing pains for a new team which is normal. Imagine him having that management and great players around him for a decade or more. 

Precisely, the first yr they had mostly min guys to fill out the roster after maxing the 3.   They also had protocol issues with Wade still trying to be the alpha.   Once Wade ceded, they were a MUCH better team.

[d2o 1602]

Just now, BradInATX said:

Well yeah, if you're using Jordan as your measuring stick. 

But again that ignores all of the years that MJ lost BEFORE the Finals.

[ztejas 43526]

9 minutes ago, d2o said:

It was Scottie Pippen becoming at worst the 3rd or 4th best player in the league.

'94 and '95 are the only years you can make that argument with a straight face. Pippen is properly rated in my book. 

4 minutes ago, usmc0331horn said:

If LeBron had that situation in CLeveland he would have stayed there his entire career and won 6-8 finals I would imagine

Worst take on this topic I've seen so far. And Brad is posting left and right.

6 minutes ago, d2o said:

You mean 2008 when Ilgauskas was the next best player on his team and they still went 7 with the eventual champ?   Or 2009 when he avg'd 38/8/8 with Mo Williams as the 2nd best player?

Nah, you're right about 2008. No fault there.

I think I meant 2009 and 2010. He was great in 2009 but not championship-level great. That was a pretty balanced series - Orlando past Dwight wasn't all that. There is no reason the Cavs with HCA couldn't have won that series. LeBron hadn't figured out how to win yet. You put 2015 LeBron on that squad I think they win in 5 games.

2010 LeBron straight up quit on them and already had a foot out the door. 

[d2o 1602]

The thing is I don't really have an issue with anyone saying MJ is better.   At this point it comes down to what style you prefer.   I have issue with people saying that its not close.   Like I said, I can make a legit argument for any of the 4 I mentioned earlier.   That in itself shows that its close.

[ztejas 43526]

4 minutes ago, d2o said:

But again that ignores all of the years that MJ lost BEFORE the Finals.

LeBron lost before the Finals plenty before the Heatles. He made it in 2007 in a wide open East and then was on the wrong side of one of the biggest Finals series blowouts ever.

[usmc0331horn 962]

1 minute ago, ztejas said:

'94 and '95 are the only years you can make that argument with a straight face. Pippen is properly rated in my book. 

Worst take on this topic I've seen so far. And Brad is posting left and right.

Nah, you're right about 2008. No fault there.

I think I meant 2009 and 2010. He was great in 2009 but not championship-level great. That was a pretty balanced series - Orlando past Dwight wasn't all that. There is no reason the Cavs with HCA couldn't have won that series. LeBron hadn't figured out how to win yet. You put 2015 LeBron on that squad I think they win in 5 games.

2010 LeBron straight up quit on them and already had a foot out the door. 

IF LeBron had Phil Jackson or similar hall of fame coach, a stellar group around him, and a stellar front office he wouldn't have won a bunch of championships? How is that a bad take?

[BradInATX 9208]

2 minutes ago, usmc0331horn said:

For 4 years. And the first year had some growing pains for a new team which is normal. Imagine him having that management and great players around him for a decade or more. 

Jordan didn't have great coaching and teammates around him for his entire tenure there. The team around him in his early career was trash. Even Phil's first year, Scottie was an above-average player but not a star yet, and their third best player was Horace Grant who at that point was barely even a plus-player.

The first year Jordan has even reasonably decent talent around him was 1989 and that was an extraordinarily young, raw team in the first year of a new, complicated system (Phil's first year).

The next year he won a championship and never looked back. 

 

Both Jordan and LeBron had similar arcs. Garbage team, bad coaching for the early period of their career. Then they both found themselves on talented, well-coached teams as they entered their prime. The differences were that the Bulls built their team, and LeBron manufactured his. And that Jordan never lost after that.

[usmc0331horn 962]

1 minute ago, BradInATX said:

Jordan didn't have great coaching and teammates around him for his entire tenure there. The team around him in his early career was trash. Even Phil's first year, Scottie was an above-average player but not a star yet, and their third best player was Horace Grant who at that point was barely even a plus-player.

The first year Jordan has even reasonably decent talent around him was 1989 and that was an extraordinarily young, raw team in the first year of a new, complicated system (Phil's first year).

The next year he won a championship and never looked back. 

 

Both Jordan and LeBron had similar arcs. Garbage team, bad coaching for the early period of their career. Then they both found themselves on talented, well-coached teams as they entered their prime. The differences were that the Bulls built their team, and LeBron manufactured his. And that Jordan never lost after that.

LeBron had to manufacture his. Jordan would have done the same thing in this era.

[BradInATX 9208]

8 minutes ago, d2o said:

But again that ignores all of the years that MJ lost BEFORE the Finals.

I don't know what that really has anything to do with anything. LeBron lost a bunch of years before he hit his prime too. See my above post. They both had bad teams and bad coaching early. If you do apples to apples which is when they were both finally surrounded by a good team and good coaching, then you have Jordan at 6 for 6 (or 6 for 7 if you want to nitpick and count Phil's first year) and LeBron at 2 for 4. 

Edited October 1, 2020 by BradInATX

[d2o 1602]

6 minutes ago, ztejas said:

'94 and '95 are the only years you can make that argument with a straight face. Pippen is properly rated in my book. 

Worst take on this topic I've seen so far. And Brad is posting left and right.

Nah, you're right about 2008. No fault there.

I think I meant 2009 and 2010. He was great in 2009 but not championship-level great. That was a pretty balanced series - Orlando past Dwight wasn't all that. There is no reason the Cavs with HCA couldn't have won that series. LeBron hadn't figured out how to win yet. You put 2015 LeBron on that squad I think they win in 5 games.

2010 LeBron straight up quit on them and already had a foot out the door. 

2010 he was already in MIA.    2009 was against ORL.   Again, he went for 38/8/8 in that series.   If that is quitting..........maaaaaaaannnnnn

 

And Pip was 1st or 2nd team all-NBA AND 1st team defense every yr from 92 until 97.   Not sure how you can say that is a bad take.   His defense on Magic flipped the series in their first title.  

Edited October 1, 2020 by d2o

[conVINCEd 21469]

2 minutes ago, d2o said:

2010 he was already in MIA.    2009 was against ORL.   Again, he went for 38/8/8 in that series.   If that is quitting..........maaaaaaaannnnnn

He quit against Boston.

[BradInATX 9208]

I like that ztejas is making the same argument but actually weakening my case by saying a bunch of stupid shit like that the 2007 Finals are somehow a strike against LeBron and not a Herculean accomplishment dragging an absolute trash team to the NBA Finals. God damn, man. Step aside, you're actually hurting your own argument.

[Sbbruin 21866]

1 hour ago, Vic Mackey said:

Oh look, the tired old LBJ vs MJ arguments. Who the fuck cares. Both players were the best in their respective eras. Why do people feel the need to interject MJ constantly when Lebron is still playing? He hasn't played in about 2 decades. Get over it.

Yeah, especially when we all know the Kobe was the GOAT.

[usmc0331horn 962]

Yea isn't everyone sick and tired of talking about MJ? Fucking Last Dance had to get everyone all nostalgic and help continuously to bring up the damn debate.

[ztejas 43526]

8 minutes ago, usmc0331horn said:

IF LeBron had Phil Jackson or similar hall of fame coach, a stellar group around him, and a stellar front office he wouldn't have won a bunch of championships? How is that a bad take?

Oh like Pat Riley, one of the best GMs in NBA history, and Spoelstra, who might be the best coach in the NBA right now? 

And LeBron was the fucking GM and coach in his second stint with the Cavs. Saying he somehow deserved better is ludicrous when he wouldn't let anyone else run the show. 

7 minutes ago, d2o said:

2010 he was already in MIA. 

No he wasn't. They lost to the Celtics in 6 games in the ECSF iirc. Double check your Pip numbers while you're at it and then I'll get back to you.

[d2o 1602]

 

4 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

I don't know what that really has anything to do with anything. LeBron lost a bunch of years before he hit his prime too. See my above post. They both had bad teams and bad coaching early. If you do apples to apples which is when they were both finally surrounded by a good team and good coaching, then you have Jordan at 6 for 6 and LeBron at 2 for 4. 

It has everything to do with the discussion because you're acting like MJ won a title every yr in his prime.   He did not.   

[BradInATX 9208]

Just now, ztejas said:

No he wasn't. They lost to the Celtics in 6 games in the ECSF iirc. Double check your Pip numbers while you're at it and then I'll get back to you.

Huh.

 

[ztejas 43526]

3 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

I like that ztejas is making the same argument but actually weakening my case by saying a bunch of stupid shit like that the 2007 Finals are somehow a strike against LeBron and not a Herculean accomplishment dragging an absolute trash team to the NBA Finals. God damn, man. Step aside, you're actually hurting your own argument.

Okay bro. I don't want to be making the same arguments as someone with your pedigree. Although I'm with you on most of the LeBron/MJ stuff.

2007 was not a "Herculean" accomplishment. The East didn't even have a title contender. All of them were in the West.

[ztejas 43526]

Just now, BradInATX said:

Huh.

 

Yes, when we are talking about NBA seasons we use the year in which the playoffs were played. 

[d2o 1602]

7 minutes ago, conVINCEd said:

He quit against Boston.

Right, the series where they went 7 with the champ.  In game 7 he had 45/5/6.    Again, if this is quitting.........

[BradInATX 9208]

4 minutes ago, ztejas said:

Okay bro. I don't want to be making the same arguments as someone with your pedigree. Although I'm with you on most of the LeBron/MJ stuff.

2007 was not a "Herculean" accomplishment. The East didn't even have a title contender. All of them were in the West.

My pedigree? Dude, you just confidently told someone that LeBron was in Cleveland in 2010 when a five second google search shows you are wrong. If you don't know the subject matter well enough, at least try not to be too lazy to google it before you @ another poster saying they got their facts wrong. 

And LOL at the notion that dragging over the hill Z, 33 year old Donyell Marshall, Anderson Varejao, and Drew Gooden to the NBA Finals isn't an accomplishment. Christ you are a dense mother fucker.

Edited October 1, 2020 by BradInATX

[kopp0e 1135]

1 hour ago, Pam Cummings said:

The fact that people even feel the need to make the comparison tells you all you need to know. Just enjoy greatness while you can see it, folks.

 

Also, a title in Cleveland is worth 3 anywhere else.

If we aren't talkin' 'bout (the) Ohio State Buckeyes football program, I'd say a title of any kind in the state of Ohio is worth about 5 anywhere else...

[ztejas 43526]

1 minute ago, d2o said:

Right, the series where they went 7 with the champ.  In game 7 he had 45/5/6.    Again, if this is quitting.........

[ztejas 43526]

I'm out. Y'all have a nice day. Go Horns. My thoughts in this debate are on the record now.

[d2o 1602]

5 minutes ago, ztejas said:

Oh like Pat Riley, one of the best GMs in NBA history, and Spoelstra, who might be the best coach in the NBA right now? 

And LeBron was the fucking GM and coach in his second stint with the Cavs. Saying he somehow deserved better is ludicrous when he wouldn't let anyone else run the show. 

No he wasn't. They lost to the Celtics in 6 games in the ECSF iirc. Double check your Pip numbers while you're at it and then I'll get back to you.

Not sure what you want to check.  Look for yourself: https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html

 

[BradInATX 9208]

5 minutes ago, d2o said:

 

It has everything to do with the discussion because you're acting like MJ won a title every yr in his prime.   He did not.   

Prime is difficult to define. But the apples-to-apples comparison we do have is that both spent a number of years with a good coach and good talent around them while in their prime

MJ during that period: 6 for 7

LBJ: 2 for 4

[conVINCEd 21469]

3 minutes ago, d2o said:

Right, the series where they went 7 with the champ.  In game 7 he had 45/5/6.    Again, if this is quitting.........

I’ll dig up the details when I have some more time, because a quick google search yields plenty of results discussing the issue.

[ztejas 43526]

Just now, d2o said:

Not sure what you want to check.  Look for yourself: https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html

 

Thanks. This thread needs more of that. 

So two of his 1st team years were the ones I conceded. I'll concede 96, too. 

Point being he was not the 3rd best player in the NBA in 1991 and wasn't all that close. 

(Okay, now I'm done)

[ztejas 43526]

Just now, conVINCEd said:

I’ll dig up the details when I have some more time, because a quick google search yields plenty of results discussing the issue.

He's talking about 2008. You're talking about 2010. Save yourself the time. 

[BradInATX 9208]

I think Pippen and the Wade LBJ played with were roughly equivalent. And I think Horace Grant and Bosh were semi-equal. Early-career Grant was not as good as Bosh, but by 91/92 Grant was a very, very good 3rd option.

The squads the two of them had are actually pretty comparable. Jordan's early title team was basically three guys and scrubs very similar to the first Heatles team, and both got more talented after the first year or two. Bulls by player growth, Heat by acquisition.

[d2o 1602]

2 minutes ago, ztejas said:

Thanks. This thread needs more of that. 

So two of his 1st team years were the ones I conceded. I'll concede 96, too. 

Point being he was not the 3rd best player in the NBA in 1991 and wasn't all that close. 

(Okay, now I'm done)

So 91 was just MJ "figuring it out" not Pip becoming an adequate #2?   His defense on Magic in the Finals didnt change the entire tone of the series?