2019-2020 NBA Season Thread

[BradInATX 9208]

3 minutes ago, d2o said:

So 91 was just MJ "figuring it out" not Pip becoming an adequate #2?   His defense on Magic in the Finals didnt change the entire tone of the series?

 

Pippen was 10th in the league in VORP in 90-91, 5th in 91-92, and 10th in 92-93. I think that is a fair assessment of him. He was lower end of the top 10 in their first three title block.

You definitely can't call him top 3 when you had D-Rob and a still-prime Magic Johnson playing. along with prime Stockton and Barkley. All of those guys were unequivocally better than Pippen. The tier after that with Drexler, Malone, etc. is where you could start possibly shuffling Pip up or down. 

Edited October 1, 2020 by BradInATX

[d2o 1602]

6 minutes ago, ztejas said:

He's talking about 2008. You're talking about 2010. Save yourself the time. 

2009-10 they lost to Celts.  90 yr old Shaq was the #2.  Nuff said.   LBJ avg'd 27/9/7 for the series.   In the closeout game LBJ had 27/19/10.   Again, that's some helluva quitting.

Edited October 1, 2020 by d2o

[BradInATX 9208]

Saw a stat just now that Herro's -30 is the second worst in finals history (Kobe.. lol). That's horrific and he looked completely unprepared for being thrust into the primary ball-handler role. That's why they have no chance without Dragic, IMO. But we'll see. 

Back to work for me as well, real work time now that my con call is done.

[Patrick Bateman 3933]

1 hour ago, d2o said:

Whoa????   When did MJ beat Bird?   He beat Magic once.   What are you on about?   

Yes, the Mavs loss was bad.   Its the only thing you can knock LBJ on.   But the saying that MJ was undefeated in the Finals while ignoring him losing before that makes it seem like you would rather someone lose BEFORE the Finals than IN the Finals.   That doesn't make sense.

If you want to look as LBJ having the "worst" loss you also have to give him credit for the far "better" wins.  Right?

I'm assuming he means when Bird was a coach for Indiana.  By the time Jordan was winning championships in 91-92, Boston was still good as Reggie Lewis pick really picked them up and they were the winner of the Eastern division but because of seeding was always on the other end of the bracket.  Jordan and Bulls did their part and got to the ECF, but Bird, Lewis and company could never do theirs, losing in the semi's both years.  

55 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

Jordan didn't have great coaching and teammates around him for his entire tenure there. The team around him in his early career was trash. Even Phil's first year, Scottie was an above-average player but not a star yet, and their third best player was Horace Grant who at that point was barely even a plus-player.

The first year Jordan has even reasonably decent talent around him was 1989 and that was an extraordinarily young, raw team in the first year of a new, complicated system (Phil's first year).

Grant and Pippen were about even in Phil's first year.  Horace Grant was a pretty good player and folks forget that, but Scottie's ability to defend and guard skills at his height gave him a higher ceiling which he eventually fulfilled.  

If one wants to draw distinctions between MJ and Lebron, Lebron had to really learn to be a champion from another Alpha and already champion, in Wade.  Jordan learned it from his opponents but never had another championship leader on his teams.  Scottie, for all of his game (he had a ton), was never going to be able to lead a team to a championship.  He was definitely a #2.  

[d2o 1602]

13 minutes ago, Patrick Bateman said:

I'm assuming he means when Bird was a coach for Indiana.  By the time Jordan was winning championships in 91-92, Boston was still good as Reggie Lewis pick really picked them up and they were the winner of the Eastern division but because of seeding was always on the other end of the bracket.  Jordan and Bulls did their part and got to the ECF, but Bird, Lewis and company could never do theirs, losing in the semi's both years.  

Grant and Pippen were about even in Phil's first year.  Horace Grant was a pretty good player and folks forget that, but Scottie's ability to defend and guard skills at his height gave him a higher ceiling which he eventually fulfilled.  

If one wants to draw distinctions between MJ and Lebron, Lebron had to really learn to be a champion from another Alpha and already champion, in Wade.  Jordan learned it from his opponents but never had another championship leader on his teams.  Scottie, for all of his game (he had a ton), was never going to be able to lead a team to a championship.  He was definitely a #2.  

Bird was still good in spurts but he was a shell by that time.   My biggest memory of him from that time was him diving for a loose ball and smashing his face into the court in part because he didn't even have the little athleticism that he once had.

[Hate 20149]

Let’s also not forget that LeBron basically had a bye for the Eastern Conference Playoffs from 2011-2018. There is no way his teams make it to The Finals if they had to go through the West.

[Wulaw Horn 19153]

1 hour ago, ztejas said:

Eh. I can knock him on 2008 and 2009. He got shellacked in 2014 but the Heat were never winning that series, so I guess he gets a pass. Durant smoked him in 2018. 

Could you? Jordan has best year ever, best 2 year stretch, best 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 year stretch, best decade. 

Guys only start edging Jordan when you get to 13, 14, 15 year stretches. Which is a valid argument in LeBron's favor. But peak MJ was peak MJ. Prime MJ was prime MJ. No one has ever reached those heights. I'd be shocked if anyone does, frankly.

Dream won back to back titles without another all NBA 1st, 2nd or 3rd teamer, no other Allstate in year one (and maybe year 2 but Clyde got in there late and he was past his prime) and laid waste to HOFers all over the place. I’d argue that was the greatest 2 year stretch of single handed domination ever and put that up with any of MJ’s 2 year spans. 
MJ sustained that for a decade. Hakeem only touched that top of the mountain for a little bit. 

[Vic Mackey 47182]

1 hour ago, usmc0331horn said:

Yea isn't everyone sick and tired of talking about MJ? Fucking Last Dance had to get everyone all nostalgic and help continuously to bring up the damn debate.

It has been going on for years. Go on any social media post about Lebron. Or internet forum, etc. A Lebron topic will segway to comparisons to MJ. Both are all time greats and have accomplished everything there is.

I think one of his biggest accomplishments is taking that 2007 Cavs team to the Finals at a young age. Holy shit that roster was dogshit. The game 5 in Detroit where he scored the final 27pts for the Cavs himself to take them down. This is when Detroit was damn good and favored to go back to the Finals again. And coming back from 3-1 to the 73 win Warriors team to win it all is one of the most legendary moments in the NBA. Kyrie had the big shot and Lebron had that huge block on Iggy from behind.

I am trying to think of how many Finals losses Lebron has where his team was supposed to win. Only one I can think of is the 2011 Mavs series. The rest, they were the underdogs. Every single matchup with the Warriors they were supposed to get owned, especially after KD came on board. I guess the 2014 Spurs series is debatable as who was the favorite but I thought the Spurs were the better team top to bottom by far. I thought they were better in 2013 as well which is why they needed 7 to beat them and hard fought as hell. Lebron is 2-0 in Game 7s of the Finals. Pretty damn clutch.

[ztejas 43556]

10 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Dream won back to back titles without another all NBA 1st, 2nd or 3rd teamer, no other Allstate in year one (and maybe year 2 but Clyde got in there late and he was past his prime) and laid waste to HOFers all over the place. I’d argue that was the greatest 2 year stretch of single handed domination ever and put that up with any of MJ’s 2 year spans. 
MJ sustained that for a decade. Hakeem only touched that top of the mountain for a little bit. 

It's an interesting debate. Playoffs only Hakeem has a good argument. When you include the regular season, Jordan '92 and '93 is still unrivaled in my book. What makes it more difficult is the fact that Jordan wasn't in the league in '94 and still getting back into game shape in '95.I actually might put LeBron 2012 and 2013 as 2nd 2 year stretch.

But there are a lot of great ones. Bird won 3 straight MVPs. Duncan won b2b MVPs and took a bunch of nobodies to a championship win in 03 (although I think his MVPs were the 2 years prior - correct if wrong). Shaq from 2000 to 2002 was almost unstoppable. Magic in 88 and 89 kicked all kinds of ass. Kobe 09 and 10 is an underrated 2 year stretch imo. 

There's more you could list. KD in 17 and 18 wouldn't be a popular mention but he was about as good as a lot of those guys.

[Wulaw Horn 19153]

1 hour ago, BradInATX said:

Prime is difficult to define. But the apples-to-apples comparison we do have is that both spent a number of years with a good coach and good talent around them while in their prime

MJ during that period: 6 for 7

LBJ: 2 for 4

6/8. He lost to the magic too. I don’t understand why people pretend that didn’t happen. It did. I member. Hakeem would have punked Jordan anyway if they’d have gotten past Shaq. Hakeem is the only superstar with a winning record against MJ- right? 

Edited October 1, 2020 by Wulaw Horn

[d2o 1602]

11 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

6/8. He lost to the magic too. I don’t understand why people pretend that didn’t happen. It did. I member. Hakeem would have punted Jordan anyway if they’d have gotten past Shaq. Hakeem is the only superstar with a winning record against MJ- right? 

Yep, the Rockets of that time played them very well.   The Bulls had NOTHING that could deal with Hakeem and they had Maxwell who at least didnt back down from MJ.   Kenny Smith talks about it all the time and while he is obviously biased he does have a good point.

The glossing over that comeback yr is always done.  Just like the other years of the Bulls losing before getting to the Finals.    He was MVP/DPOY in 88 and they lost in the 2nd round.   Sound familiar?  Was that not his prime?  No one talks about that now.   He was 7 yrs in before he won a title and the talk up until that time was was he actually good enough to win?   Could a team with a guard as their #1 win?   Did his ballhogging style lend itself to winning?  That is why I say some of the people talking about it now were too young to remember the day to day part of it.   

Edited October 1, 2020 by d2o

[Wulaw Horn 19153]

6 minutes ago, ztejas said:

It's an interesting debate. Playoffs only Hakeem has a good argument. When you include the regular season, Jordan '92 and '93 is still unrivaled in my book. What makes it more difficult is the fact that Jordan wasn't in the league in '94 and still getting back into game shape in '95.I actually might put LeBron 2012 and 2013 as 2nd 2 year stretch.

But there are a lot of great ones. Bird won 3 straight MVPs. Duncan won b2b MVPs and took a bunch of nobodies to a championship win in 03 (although I think his MVPs were the 2 years prior - correct if wrong). Shaq from 2000 to 2002 was almost unstoppable. Magic in 88 and 89 kicked all kinds of ass. Kobe 09 and 10 is an underrated 2 year stretch imo. 

There's more you could list. KD in 17 and 18 wouldn't be a popular mention but he was about as good as a lot of those guys.

Seriously- what Hakeem did (twice) is I believe- rivaled by only Dirk and that’s single handedly lead a team to a title without anyone else important to the league at that time on his team.  Kids and drexler were both HoF well pst their time. Then some role players.  No other all stars.  Remarkable. 

[Wulaw Horn 19153]

3 minutes ago, d2o said:

Yep, the Rockets of that time played them very well.   The Bulls had NOTHING that could deal with Hakeem and they had Maxwell who at least didnt back down from MJ.   Kenny Smith talks about it all the time and while he is obviously biased he does have a good point.

The glossing over that comeback yr is always done.  Just like the other years of the Bulls losing before getting to the Finals.    He was MVP/DPOY in 88 and they lost in the 2nd round.   Sound familiar?  Was that not his prime?  No one talks about that now.   He was 7 yrs in before he won a title and the talk up until that time was was he actually good enough to win?   Could a team with a guard as their #1 win?   Did his ballhogging style lend itself to winning?  That is why I say some of the people talking about it now were too young to remember the day to day part of it.   

Yessir. I was a kid at the time but followed hoops. The prevailing narrative was good stats guy, incredible athlete, selfish, ball hog, not a winner. Was that unfair?  Yeah. But it was the story- I remember it. 
I didn’t really appreciate how great MJ was until the Cleveland series where he sent them home on one of the most iconic shots ever. But that was what- his age 27 season?  We give up on guys now if they aren’t great by year 27. 

[d2o 1602]

4 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Seriously- what Hakeem did (twice) is I believe- rivaled by only Dirk and that’s single handedly lead a team to a title without anyone else important to the league at that time on his team.  Kids and drexler were both HoF well pst their time. Then some role players.  No other all stars.  Remarkable. 

Uhhh..........Isiah?

[BradInATX 9208]

Bruh we're not going to count the year he came back and played like 12 games prior to the playoffs after a 2 year hiatus. Come on now.

[d2o 1602]

2 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Yessir. I was a kid at the time but followed hoops. The prevailing narrative was good stats guy, incredible athlete, selfish, ball hog, not a winner. Was that unfair?  Yeah. But it was the story- I remember it. 
I didn’t really appreciate how great MJ was until the Cleveland series where he sent them home on one of the most iconic shots ever. But that was what- his age 27 season?  We give up on guys now if they aren’t great by year 27. 

Yep, there were plenty saying that he wasnt as good as Magic or Bird.   Couldnt win like they could

[Wulaw Horn 19153]

1 minute ago, d2o said:

Uhhh..........Isiah?

Dumars is a HOF and was in his prime, right?  
That was the closest I could come to Hakeem and Dirk but he barely misses the cut imo bc of dumars. 

[d2o 1602]

2 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

Bruh we're not going to count the year he came back and played like 12 games prior to the playoffs after a 2 year hiatus. Come on now.

He scored 55 5 games after coming back.   Are we not counting that?    

[Wulaw Horn 19153]

Just now, d2o said:

He scored 55 5 games after coming back.   Are we not counting that?    

No. Only counts when he ends with a parade. 

Edited October 1, 2020 by Wulaw Horn

[conVINCEd 21473]

3 minutes ago, d2o said:

Uhhh..........Isiah?

Joe Dumars was a HOF guy in his prime.  

[d2o 1602]

Just now, Wulaw Horn said:

Dumars is a HOF and was in his prime, right?  
That was the closest I could come to Hakeem and Dirk but he barely misses the cut imo bc of dumars. 

I know he is in there but Dumars has no business in the HOF.  That is another story though.

[BradInATX 9208]

One thing the earlier debate got me interested in was Horace Grant and his contributions. I more remember the second Jordan run (high school) than the first (middle school). I don't remember hearing much hype at all on him in the first run, but he was the 15th best player in the league in 93/94 according to VORP. I don't remember that at all. Crazy. Pippen and MJ I remember from the first run and I remember hype for Rodman and Kukoc the second run. Grant unfairly seems like an afterthought.

 

[Wulaw Horn 19153]

1 minute ago, d2o said:

I know he is in there but Dumars has no business in the HOF.  That is another story though.

Yeah- if it was only dumars I’d probably agree with you- but they also had Rodman and The microwave, Salley and Lambeer. I don’t think you can make the argument that the pistons were talent deficient, but they were the next closest team to complete with Hakeem and Dirk. 

[d2o 1602]

3 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

No. Only counts when he ends with a parade. 

Yeah, its kinda frustrating making points against MJ.   I was a HUGE Bulls/MJ fan back then.   Sometimes it sucks being rational I guess.

[Wulaw Horn 19153]

1 minute ago, BradInATX said:

One thing the earlier debate got me interested in was Horace Grant and his contributions. I more remember the second Jordan run (high school) than the first (middle school). I don't remember hearing much hype at all on him in the first run, but he was the 15th best player in the league in 93/94 according to VORP. I don't remember that at all. Crazy.

Yeah- and him going to Orlando was what swung the series. He was a legit all star level performer for at least the last 2 runs and probably a top 25 player in the league for 5 or so years. 

[d2o 1602]

5 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Yeah- if it was only dumars I’d probably agree with you- but they also had Rodman and The microwave, Salley and Lambeer. I don’t think you can make the argument that the pistons were talent deficient, but they were the next closest team to complete with Hakeem and Dirk. 

Rodman was a role player as as Salley.   Didnt even start until the 2nd title yr.   Laimbeer and Vinnie were good players but no one would mistake them for great.   I grew and was in Detroit during that time.   Watching that team grow to what it became was an awesome time for basketball.  

Edited October 1, 2020 by d2o

[Wulaw Horn 19153]

Just now, d2o said:

Yeah, its kinda frustrating making points against MJ.   I was a HUGE Bulls/MJ fan back then.   Sometimes it sucks being rational I guess.

Same. I think it’s MJ over Lebron for sure as well. MJ was fucking incredible. But so is LBJ (and I don’t even really like either of them) and using mine to neg the other one is just doing it wrong. 

[d2o 1602]

3 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

One thing the earlier debate got me interested in was Horace Grant and his contributions. I more remember the second Jordan run (high school) than the first (middle school). I don't remember hearing much hype at all on him in the first run, but he was the 15th best player in the league in 93/94 according to VORP. I don't remember that at all. Crazy. Pippen and MJ I remember from the first run and I remember hype for Rodman and Kukoc the second run. Grant unfairly seems like an afterthought.

 

His defensive versatility was a huge part of what made the first 3 peat great.   There were many trips where he helped MJ/Pip press in the backcourt and then was still able to get back and guard the lane.    Once he added the 18 ft jumper the team became unstoppable.  He was greatly under-appreciated.   Still is cause he didnt bow down to MJ as the doc showed.

[Wulaw Horn 19153]

Just now, d2o said:

Rodman was a role player as as Salley.   Didnt even start until the 2nd title yr.   Laimbeer and Vinnie were good players but no one would mistake them for great.

Sure. And if you were picking both teams together the draft would go like this:

hakeem

Thomas

Dumars

Lambeer

thorpe

johnson

maxwell

rodman

cassell

Horry. 
that’s how the top 10 player draft would go imo. 

[gsoda3 3284]

3 hours ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Disagree with Magic being in and Russell being out. 

MJ

LBJ

Kareem

Russell. 

Magic

thats my top 5 in order. I can’t really put anyone else in order but I will go with:

Wilt, Bird, Hakeem, Shaq and Robert Horry in some order. Horry of course being the second greatest Ringzz player ever behind Russell. Sure I forgot someone in my top 10 that was super obvious thus why I left

my top 10 at only 9 players. And #10 isn’t Kobe. He’s in the 11-15 range for me with KD. If KD comes back at 90% and gets another ring he can be top 10 all time I think. Maybe pass Bird. 
 

you put robert horry in your list of top 10 players?  

[Wulaw Horn 19153]

Just now, gsoda3 said:

you put robert horry in your list of top 10 players?  

Just checking to see if you read anything after Horry. If so, what’s your opinion on silliness or sarcasm?  

[d2o 1602]

6 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Yeah- if it was only dumars I’d probably agree with you- but they also had Rodman and The microwave, Salley and Lambeer. I don’t think you can make the argument that the pistons were talent deficient, but they were the next closest team to complete with Hakeem and Dirk. 

True and kinda makes what the 04 Pistons did even more incredible.   You could make an argument for Ben Wallace making the HOF but in truth he isn't a HOFer.   They beat a team with 2 top 15 all time players and though they were past their prime two more top 35-40 guys without a single superstar caliber player.

[gsoda3 3284]

Just now, Wulaw Horn said:

Just checking to see if you read anything after Horry. If so, what’s your opinion on silliness or sarcasm?  

that's it's hard to detect any of it from your post.

[d2o 1602]

4 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Sure. And if you were picking both teams together the draft would go like this:

hakeem

Thomas

Dumars

Lambeer

thorpe

johnson

maxwell

rodman

cassell

Horry. 
that’s how the top 10 player draft would go imo. 

Man I think you think too highly over Dumars but its all good.  I'd take Clyde over him 1000/1000 but I'm guessing you are trying to keep it to the first HOU title team.

Edited October 1, 2020 by d2o

[d2o 1602]

1 minute ago, gsoda3 said:

that's it's hard to detect any of it from your post.

The inclusion of Horry itself wasn't enough?

[Wulaw Horn 19153]

Just now, gsoda3 said:

that's it's hard to detect any of it from your post.

Seriously?  I said Ringzzz and then I even said I have only 9 players in my top 10 because I knew I forgot someone (Duncan) and was using Horry as a place holder. That’s a seriously broken silliness meter you’ve got man. 

[Wulaw Horn 19153]

1 minute ago, d2o said:

The inclusion of Horry itself wasn't enough?

Also- there is that in and of itself. 

[Wulaw Horn 19153]

2 minutes ago, d2o said:

Man I think you think to highly over Dumars but its all good.  I'd take Clyde over him 1000/1000 but I'm guessing you are trying to keep it to the first HOU title team.

Correct. 

[gsoda3 3284]

2 minutes ago, d2o said:

The inclusion of Horry itself wasn't enough?

i mean that's why i questioned it.  we've all seen worse on this board.

2 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Seriously?  I said Ringzzz and then I even said I have only 9 players in my top 10 because I knew I forgot someone (Duncan) and was using Horry as a place holder. That’s a seriously broken silliness meter you’ve got man. 

i'm zoom schooling 4 kids.  my silliness meter doesn't work anymore.

 

[d2o 1602]

3 minutes ago, gsoda3 said:

i mean that's why i questioned it.  we've all seen worse on this board.

i'm zoom schooling 4 kids.  my silliness meter doesn't work anymore.

 

Nah, I dont think we have seen worse than Horry in the top 10 all time.

[ztejas 43556]

1 hour ago, Wulaw Horn said:

6/8. He lost to the magic too. I don’t understand why people pretend that didn’t happen. It did. I member. Hakeem would have punked Jordan anyway if they’d have gotten past Shaq. Hakeem is the only superstar with a winning record against MJ- right? 

I don't know what Brad is referring to exactly so we may be on a different page, but Jordan was 6/7 in years he played. I thought that's what he meant. I don't know why you would include 94 and not 95. It did happen but MJ was just getting back into game shape and they were playing as the 5 seed without HCA.

Besides, who gives a shit about the Magic series loss. They only went on to 3 peat. Again. He could have just not played in '95, no sense in faulting him for trying. Just like faulting LeBron for losing in 2007 or a year like 2015 or 2018 would be silly. Making the Finals was the accomplishment.

[d2o 1602]

 

[d2o 1602]

11 minutes ago, ztejas said:

I don't know what Brad is referring to exactly so we may be on a different page, but Jordan was 6/7 in years he played. I thought that's what he meant. I don't know why you would include 94 and not 95. It did happen but MJ was just getting back into game shape and they were playing as the 5 seed without HCA.

Besides, who gives a shit about the Magic series loss. They only went on to 3 peat. Again. He could have just not played in '95, no sense in faulting him for trying. Just like faulting LeBron for losing in 2007 or a year like 2015 or 2018 would be silly. Making the Finals was the accomplishment.

[BradInATX 9208]

20 minutes ago, ztejas said:

I don't know what Brad is referring to exactly so we may be on a different page, but Jordan was 6/7 in years he played. I thought that's what he meant. I don't know why you would include 94 and not 95. It did happen but MJ was just getting back into game shape and they were playing as the 5 seed without HCA.

Besides, who gives a shit about the Magic series loss. They only went on to 3 peat. Again. He could have just not played in '95, no sense in faulting him for trying. Just like faulting LeBron for losing in 2007 or a year like 2015 or 2018 would be silly. Making the Finals was the accomplishment.

My 6 for 7 included Phil's first year, (89-90), where they lost to Detroit in the ECF. I included it in the interest of being fair, because I was comparing to his time with Jackson and Pippen (which started in 89-90) vs. Lebron's with Spo and Wade/Bosh. 

I don't think it's necessarily fair to Jordan because that 89-90 team was super young, Pippen wasn't a stud yet, and the rest of the team was young and not very good. But I conceded it just to make an intellectually honest conversation. I'm not including his baseball, 15 games comeback year because that's stupid. So you end up with 6 for 7 vs. 2 for 4 when you compare level playing fields (playing in prime with a solid team and coach). No contest. 

Edited October 1, 2020 by BradInATX

[ztejas 43556]

3 hours ago, ztejas said:

LeBron lost before the Finals plenty before the Heatles. He made it in 2007 in a wide open East and then was on the wrong side of one of the biggest Finals series blowouts ever.

Guys. I never said 2007 should be a knock against LeBron. My point is that I don't think it was some great accomplishment that should elevate him over Jordan. Taking the Pistons to 7 in 90' is just as good in my book. Prime MJ would have no problem getting through the East in 2007 with how pathetic it was.

[BradInATX 9208]

Guys. I never said 2007 should be a knock against LeBron. My point is that I don't think it was some great accomplishment that should elevate him over Jordan. Taking the Pistons to 7 in 90' is just as good in my book. Prime MJ would have no problem getting through the East in 2007 with how pathetic it was.

Agreed, it's about equivalent to Jordan's 1990 playoff run. But I think it was one of LeBron's greatest feats and when people say LeBron couldn't take over a game like Jordan or whatever, look no further than that year to disprove that silly notion. He did it all year

The difference is that once Jordan peaked, he did it every single time it was needed. Every single time. Sure, he had some games where he played poorly just like every player. But never, ever when he had to have it. LeBron will never be able to say that. In fact he's really only done that one time in his career vs. GSW.

[Patrick Bateman 3933]

2 hours ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Dream won back to back titles without another all NBA 1st, 2nd or 3rd teamer, no other Allstate in year one (and maybe year 2 but Clyde got in there late and he was past his prime) and laid waste to HOFers all over the place. I’d argue that was the greatest 2 year stretch of single handed domination ever and put that up with any of MJ’s 2 year spans. 
MJ sustained that for a decade. Hakeem only touched that top of the mountain for a little bit. 

Drexler was 3rd team All NBA that year.  He had his best year since in 3 years and was still pretty damn good. He had a PER of 22.4, WS/48 over .200 and VORP of almost 6, which was 5th in the league.  He was still a superstar when traded.  He faded quickly in subsequent years and maybe that's what you're remembering, but for that run, he was fantastic.  

[Sbbruin 21900]

Maybe let's get back to the finals.  Another unsung hero in this Laker run is Frank Vogel.  Not the first or second choice, but the right choice.  We were a defensive mess the last few years.  And now we are winning on the back of the defense.  Of course AD makes a big difference, but the defense first mentality has gone a looong way in transforming this team.

 

Now back to the LBJ/MJ debate.

[d2o 1602]

1 hour ago, BradInATX said:

Agreed, it's about equivalent to Jordan's 1990 playoff run. But I think it was one of LeBron's greatest feats and when people say LeBron couldn't take over a game like Jordan or whatever, look no further than that year to disprove that silly notion. He did it all year

The difference is that once Jordan peaked, he did it every single time it was needed. Every single time. Sure, he had some games where he played poorly just like every player. But never, ever when he had to have it. LeBron will never be able to say that. In fact he's really only done that one time in his career vs. GSW.

Yeah see this is off and only sees wins vs losses as "getting it done".   Basketball is not an individual game.   The Bulls were favored in at least 4 of the 6 Finals they were in.  I think they were dogs in the first one against the Lakers and the last one against the Jazz when people were drinking that Jazz kool-aid.

LBJ led teams have been the favorites in 4 of the 10 that they've been.  3 of the 4 Heat series and this yr IIRC.   They may have been favored in the first go round with GSW and then Kyrie went down in gm 1 and just about any chance they had went with him.   Still he managed to stretch that one to 6 gms.

Did LBJ not take over the series when they lost to GSW in 2017 when he avg'd 33/12/10 or in 2015 when he avg'd 34/13/9 and many were saying he prolly should have been MVP even though they lost?

MJ "got it done" when he avg'd 27/4/5 against SEA on 41%/31% shooting and 18 TOs in 6 gms?  He was 5/19 in the closeout game and finished with 22 pts.

[d2o 1602]

1 minute ago, Sbbruin said:

Maybe let's get back to the finals.  Another unsung hero in this Laker run is Frank Vogel.  Not the first or second choice, but the right choice.  We were a defensive mess the last few years.  And now we are winning on the back of the defense.  Of course AD makes a big difference, but the defense first mentality has gone a looong way in transforming this team.

 

Now back to the LBJ/MJ debate.

KCP is another unsung guy this season.   He's been everything that Danny Green was supposed to be.    A rugged defender who doesnt miss when he gets open shots.