Kitchen Knives

[Hank_Hill 19,078]

7 minutes ago, midtown said:

I use stones to sharpen

I would definitely fuck that up

[tx 3 putt 77,999]

Multi color knifes from Costco, $14 for the whole set. Couple of bigger ‘white commercial’ knives 

[Nueces River Rat 5,608]

On 6/15/2019 at 2:16 PM, utee94 said:

A friend of mine sold Cutco knives as a summer job during college.  I'm actually not sure he ever SOLD any, though.

 

We bought a few from a friend of my oldest who was selling them.  They are darn good knives, but you pay a premium for them.  We bought some steak knives and a few other specialty knives for meat and bread slicing.     And their pizza cutter is a must buy.  

[Celery Man 21,036]

I think Wusthof is probably the opposite end of victorinox in these discussions (good knives that are also expensive), but I did a whole "handle a bunch of knives and pick one" 10 years ago thing and ended up with a Wusthof Ikon chef's knife that is still my primary knife.  Love the balance and ergonomics.

Aren't the handles on Shun knives asymmetrical?  I remember thinking I would've had to have gotten a left handed one, and that nobody else would be able to use it.  Which in retrospect, would have been a plus.

[wood 11,633]

5 hours ago, Nueces River Rat said:

We bought a few from a friend of my oldest who was selling them.  They are darn good knives, but you pay a premium for them.  We bought some steak knives and a few other specialty knives for meat and bread slicing.     And their pizza cutter is a must buy.  

Cutco's steak knives are amazingly sharp. Re: the poster farther uo that was worried about collateral damage from a sharp knife ... you're more likely to accidentally cut yourself with a dull or crappy knife than with a good, sharp knife.

[conVINCEd 21,474]

3 minutes ago, wood said:

Cutco's steak knives are amazingly sharp. Re: the poster farther uo that was worried about collateral damage from a sharp knife ... you're more likely to accidentally cut yourself with a dull or crappy knife than with a good, sharp knife.

Yes, but that sharp knife will cut much deeper.

[kevwun 15,948]

True, but a nice and clean cut also heals quicker.

[TwiceHorn 31,702]

18 hours ago, Shaddie said:

So for the knife uneducated what is easiest way to sharpen after edge is gone. I know the steel to keep an edge but wondering if there is a quick and easy sharpening tool?

For one thing, you don't want them to become too dull before sharpening.  Makes it much harder to sharpen.

A steel can be good to maintain the edge for a while, but probably not too effective on the hard Japanese knives.  So either sharpen as soon as you can tell it's not as sharp as it was, and steeling doesn't help, or at least do it regularly if you pay someone to do it.  A round ceramic stick, used like a steel, can be fantastic for keeping a sharp edge sharp.  Not so good once it actually gets dull, but if you use say once a month, can be great.

[Orange&White 5,559]

 

 

[midtown 3,348]

A steel rod does not sharpen knives it simply hones them and helps them stay sharp.  Once a knife is dull you will need to sharpen it.  Using a stone isnt as hard as you'd think.  Tons of youtube videos out there.   Practice on an older cheaper knife

[BabaYaga 15,417]

Started with a nice Wusthof block set we registered for & never really thought anyone would get for us.  Still have it.  Works fine.  More for decoration these days honestly.  I've been acquiring and using cheaper butcher knives with the over-sized plastic handle (Dexter & Victorinox or Costco brands).  I'm hard on knives as it is, so there'e little concern with these.  Easy to sharpen.  I'm not working on a line in a kitchen, so they hold an edge just fine.  Easy to replace.  Easy to work with, especially when your hands are wet or you're in a hurry.  Much like the pocket knife debate, they all work well and I'm less concerned when I lose it or scuff it up.  

[TwiceHorn 31,702]

There are two components to a knife edge, maybe three depending on how you look at it.  First is it is two surfaces meeting at a selected angle.  The angle selected, either more or less acute, has to do with perceived sharpness and more acute probably means sharper, but also more delicate.  Then there's the roughness of the two surfaces and their intersection.  Really sharp means smooth and polished, and again, less durable than a rougher, coarser edge.  But a rough edge can cut very effectively on coarser materials (meat, fibrous vegetables), but won't slice flimsy stuff (tomatoes) very well.  The flimsy stuff is really more of a push cut, while the coarser stuff is sliced using a sawing motion, so the rough edge acts like saw teeth.

An edge becomes dull when the intersection of surfaces is not acute anymore.  This usually happens by the edge bending to one side and then the other and eventually breaking off, making small chips in the edge.  A hard, brittle knife that hits a bone or something hard will bypass the flipping and flopping and a chunk will fall out.

A steel straightens up the bent edge and restores functional sharpness, but can't remove material to shape the edge or to polish or remove roughness.  By straightening the edge, it also postpones the eventual breakage of that sharp intersection. 

When the edge does break, either from flip flopping or sudden fracture from whacking into something, you have to reshape and refinish it using some kind of abrasive, usually a stone, but sometimes a belt or wheel.  It's important, fairly obviously, if you are trying to get an edge at a certain angle, to hold the knife consistently at that angle.  That's what sharpmakers and other things do.  If you are able to use a belt or wheel instead of a stone, you can hold the knife still at that angle and perhaps won't need the jig provided by the sharpmaker.  You can also horrendously fuck up an edge in a hurry with one of those.

[crash_davis 23,168]

when to hone versus when to sharpen?

[52-80 19,285]

2 minutes ago, crash_davis said:

when to hone versus when to sharpen?

hone every time you use it.  or atleast every time you remember to use it.

 

when it isnt sharp anymore, sharpen.  that should be half a year to 1 year of regular usage - not cleaving fucking bones and not rattling around in a dishwasher

[midtown 3,348]

If you do go with stones think of stones like you would sandpaper.  Unless you are starting with a really trashed knife you don't need a 500 or 1000 stone.   You need a 3000 and 8000 grit.

[Doc Reeves 6,434]

Don’t know what all has been recommend but my favorite knives are my Miyabi 5000mcd 67s. 

Every major knife co. has their own top lines but only Miyabi (J.A. Henkels) is entirely hand made from start to finish. It’s also the sharpest production knife in the world. 

Next would be the F. Dick 1893 and  jubilee 1778. Excellent, excellent knives.  Also very good looking. 

Yoshihiro is another good knife co. as is Katahiro Kubota in Seki, Japan. Knives from Seki have the reputation as good quality and durable since the city is a major steel center and many respected knives makers have shops there.

shun is a solid, good looking knife as is global. I prefer global because they are just so damn well balanced. 

[After irth 1,245]

I have a full set of Lamson Sharp with the Rosewood handles that I have been using for 24 years. Recent additions/acquisitions have been the matching pair of Santokus and the cleaver. 

The 7” Santoku, the 6” Utility and the Paring knife get used the most, and travel with me to family/friend events. 

I am the only one that uses and maintains them, and they typically get used 4-5 days a week. 

The ergonomics totally work for me, and I totally agree that putting a knife in your hand before you buy is the way to go. 

[ChampKind 1,314]

On 6/15/2019 at 9:06 PM, VABuckeye said:

I have several Shun knives and a JA Henckels set.  All solid knives.  Now I’m coveting one of these.  Tomorrow is Father’s Day so perhaps it will arrive. 

Yoshihiro Aogami?  That is a dead sexy steel. Love that kurouchi finish

[ChampKind 1,314]

On 6/15/2019 at 8:47 PM, Neonmoon said:

Interesting, didn’t know they had a brisket knife. I still want the Cleaver to complete my current set. I think the most useless knife I have is the Ultimate Utility. I really like Classic Utility and Fillet knife a lot. 

The Kanso line has a serrated brisket slicer. I didn't care for it and returned the one I bought. But I absolutely love the Kanso 8' gyuto.

[ChampKind 1,314]

On 6/16/2019 at 7:14 PM, Shaddie said:

So for the knife uneducated what is easiest way to sharpen after edge is gone. I know the steel to keep an edge but wondering if there is a quick and easy sharpening tool?

Let's make sure we're talking about the same thing. The edge of your blade will fold over with use. Running a honing steel on the edge after each use will help with edge retention. Unless you're using your knife daily then you probably only need to sharpen it once a year. Sharpening will remove material from the blade, so frequent sharpening will greatly reduce the life of the blade. Electric sharpeners work just fine for inexpensive knives, but for more expensive blades you'll want to use wet stones or have them professionally sharpened.

As to the original question: most cooks really only need a chef's knife, paring knife, and roast slicer/bread knife. Most all prep tasks can be handled with a chef's. Paring is for detail work or small fruits/veggies. Slicer is for, well, slicing. You might find a filet knife handy if you're cooking a lot of briskets or other meats that need some trimming before you cook. Don't buy a set. I've done that a few times in the past and ended up with knives in my block that I never once used. Now that I own an actual-by-God restaurant, those blades have been repurposed to my kitchen. And my line cooks make regular use of them.

Go to Sur La Table or Williams Sonomo and handle all the knives. Find the one that fits your hand the best. German and Japanese steel are both good. German steel tends to hold up better for inexperienced cooks because the edge angle is not so severe and the steel is not quite as hard. Japanese steel is hard (but can chip more easily) and feels quite a bit lighter.

Find the brand that feels best for you and then hit cutlerandmore.com or chefsknivestogo.com. Those and Amazon are going to be the cheapest places to buy your new steel unless you catch a big sale at a retail store.

I have German and Japanese steel in my knife roll, and I like each for different purposes. I gravitate most to my Japanese blades (Yaxell, Yoshihiro, Global, and Shun) for most all of my prep work. Their construction fits my hand and grip the best, and they fuckers are razor sharp and incredibly nimble. But your results will almost certainly vary.

Lastly, learn how to properly hold your knives. A proper pinch grip and cutting motion will go a long way to protecting both your blades and your fingers.

[ChampKind 1,314]

22 hours ago, Celery Man said:

Aren't the handles on Shun knives asymmetrical?  I remember thinking I would've had to have gotten a left handed one, and that nobody else would be able to use it.  Which in retrospect, would have been a plus.

Most Japanese knives with an oval or d-shaped handle are left/right handed. But truth be told, if you're using a pinch grip and not riding the hilt than it really doesn't affect grip. 

[52-80 19,285]

these i use everyday.  they are indispensable.  and i dont feel the need for anything else.

8" Messermeister french-chef style: my favorite, ergonomics are top notch

8" Forschner rosewood:  honestly performs just as well as the MM.  have 2 so 1 can be use for veg and other for meats, or wife use 1 and i the other. etc.  having 2 chef knife is good

5" global chef knife:  general all purpose use.  small jobs.  wife prefers this size (*ba dum tiss*).  globals are stamped rather than forged, and it looks slippery as hell, but actually fantastic to handle.

paring knife, messermeister:  lost it somewhere.  came as a set with the chefs.

paring knife, forschner:  replacement.  theres no point in paying $$$ for paring knife. these are disposablle.

 

these are nice to have.  not essential though for most people.

Forscher bread knife:  fucking fantastic.  can be used more than just bread, like carving stuff.

big ass heavy cleaver:  bought the heaviest cleaver i could find with a fat ass spine for breaking the shit out of bones.  dont use this often, and it doesnt need to be sharp - just strong.

Shigeharu deba:  the oldest knifemaker in kyoto.  a bit fat assymetrical fish knife.  cost me stupid amounts of money, but i actually rarely use it so its more of a nice to have.  carbon steel so it really stains aka "patinas".  not at all ergonomic compared to french chef knifes.  also stupid ass guests comes over and mistake it for a butcher knife and start cleaving chicken bones and destroying the edge. 

 

 

Edited June 18, 2019 by 52-80

[Asithappens 974]

As far as actual cooking goes, knives don't really matter. Or, expensive and popular knives don't matter.

Get one you can sharpen yourself (sorry Cutco). Don't get a set - that's been mentioned a bunch of times. Hold it before you buy (if possible) to see if it fits your hand. 

If your ego demands you get a "designer" knife then go for it. Otherwise, the Victorinox chef's knife is what you want.

Get a diamond sharpening steel. It will actually sharpen instead of merely hone. 

If you're looking for an electric sharpener, the Chef's Choice Ultimate Trizor Edge is a good one.

And to repeat what others have said, don't buy one of those "block" sets. If you get one as a gift, fine. It's not that the blocks are bad, they aren't, but you can do better for the money.

[midtown 3,348]

11 minutes ago, Asithappens said:

Get a diamond sharpening steel. It will actually sharpen instead of merely hone. 

It will sharpen a little but you still will need to actually sharpen your knives with something else.

[gsoda3 3,314]

On 6/15/2019 at 8:47 PM, Neonmoon said:

Interesting, didn’t know they had a brisket knife. I still want the Cleaver to complete my current set. I think the most useless knife I have is the Ultimate Utility. I really like Classic Utility and Fillet knife a lot. 

 

On 6/16/2019 at 8:31 AM, VABuckeye said:

Japanese knives are for slicing.  German knives are for chopping.  Japanese knives will chip if used for chopping and heavier duty work.  They're made of harder steel and are thinner and thus more brittle.

 

what VA said.  don't buy a shun cleaver.  they chip easily and they're not good for meat.  i've had two.  both had chips after less than a month.  they're just built to withstand the occasional piece of gristle or bone you encounter in a chop or chicken carcass.  instead, go to your local chinese supermarket and grab one of their heavy cleavers.  make sure you buy one where the metal's been finished on the entire knife.  believe it or not they sell ones where the metal has been left unpolished on most of the blade.  and that works well if you're going to be taking care of it everyday, but for the avg home cook it's not a good choice. 

 

 

20 hours ago, wood said:

Cutco's steak knives are amazingly sharp. Re: the poster farther uo that was worried about collateral damage from a sharp knife ... you're more likely to accidentally cut yourself with a dull or crappy knife than with a good, sharp knife.

 

cutco makes the best steak knife i've ever used.  takes no effort to cut through things.  it's magnificent.

 

19 hours ago, midtown said:

A steel rod does not sharpen knives it simply hones them and helps them stay sharp.  Once a knife is dull you will need to sharpen it.  Using a stone isnt as hard as you'd think.  Tons of youtube videos out there.   Practice on an older cheaper knife

 

if you think of a knife edge like a comb (that you use on your hair), a sharpener forms the shape of the bristles-  it creates the edges so they taper to a nice narrow point at the tip on both sides.  

but just like a plastic comb where the bristles will bend, flex, and get out of line over time as you use it, so will the fine grains of your knife edge (yes your knife's edge is made up of many many tiny grains) as they cut through meat and vegetables, and come in contact with your cutting surface.  honing is what gets those bristles back in to a straight line so they can cut through things instead of tearing through them like sawteeth.  so hone your knife everytime.  before you start cutting.

 

[gsoda3 3,314]

oh and for whomever asked, i sharpen my knives once every 9 months or so.  i work from home so i cook a lot-  probably 10 times a week.

[jimmyjazz 46,508]

2 hours ago, ChampKind said:

A proper pinch grip and cutting motion will go a long way to protecting both your blades and your fingers.

That's one of the most useful tips I've picked up off the food networks.  I taught my younger two kids the same the moment they wanted to start helping in the kitchen.  Both wield a knife like a pro.  Our oldest cooks all the time and she might as well be swinging a hatchet.  She refuses to learn to hold the damn thing correctly.

[AustinMT 952]

3 hours ago, ChampKind said:

The Kanso line has a serrated brisket slicer. I didn't care for it and returned the one I bought. But I absolutely love the Kanso 8' gyuto.

The Shun works perfectly.  Also great for smoked prime rib

[ChampKind 1,314]

Didn't mean to imply it was a bad blade, I just didn't care for the heft of it or how it fit my hand. Fucker is heavy as shit compared to my Wusthof and Mundial slicers.

[AustinMT 952]

4 minutes ago, ChampKind said:

Didn't mean to imply it was a bad blade, I just didn't care for the heft of it or how it fit my hand. Fucker is heavy as shit compared to my Wusthof and Mundial slicers.

It is heavy -- I agree.  I don't have to worry about using it all day like you do. 

[52-80 19,285]

Heres what I really care about knife ergonomics - and it depends on my grip which is the pinch grip

 

 

The victorinox/forschner has a flat stamped blade.  So the heel of the the knife bites into my middle finger.

Same for many Japanese knives with a very sharp, square profile at the heel.

Most of the German knives have that really thick bolster that gets in the way of my thumb and index finger.

The one that I like (Messermeister Meridian) has a bolster thats not too wide, and it tapers smoothly into the blade. 

It all comes down to how you hold and grip tho

 

 

 

[Doc Reeves 6,434]

2 hours ago, Asithappens said:

As far as actual cooking goes, knives don't really matter. Or, expensive and popular knives don't matter.

Get one you can sharpen yourself (sorry Cutco). Don't get a set - that's been mentioned a bunch of times. Hold it before you buy (if possible) to see if it fits your hand. 

If your ego demands you get a "designer" knife then go for it. Otherwise, the Victorinox chef's knife is what you want.

Get a diamond sharpening steel. It will actually sharpen instead of merely hone. 

If you're looking for an electric sharpener, the Chef's Choice Ultimate Trizor Edge is a good one.

And to repeat what others have said, don't buy one of those "block" sets. If you get one as a gift, fine. It's not that the blocks are bad, they aren't, but you can do better for the money.

Interesting choice of words. 

If you only want utility out of your knife, I would still highly recommend dropping $200 on a good Japanese chef knife that feels good to you. It’s really a valuable addition to anyone’s tool bag.

Knives certainly are tools, however that means they are personal and there is a distinct form/feel ascetic that can enhance appreciation while using it. 

if you’re trying to impress people with an expensive knife, don’t count on anyone noticing or caring. Unless it’s one random guest who notices your holding an original hattori hd, people just won’t give a shit.

When it comes to all the “fancy” stuff (VG12 or SG2) I would say as a rule buy what you will use. Your knives should help enhance your personal experience and (as hokey as it sounds) bring you joy. 

Edited June 18, 2019 by Doc Reeves

[Doc Reeves 6,434]

One more recommendation:

Mercer knives are made in Taiwan and are very practical and preform very well. They have a good weight, balance and are excellent basic set.  I got this set for my brother 9 years ago and he loves them. They might be worth a look.

 https://www.amazon.com/Mercer-Culinary-Genesis-6-Piece-Tempered/dp/B000IBU9FW/ref=sr_1_8?crid=2MO3NX29RE6PU&keywords=mercer+knives&qid=1560873888&s=gateway&sprefix=Mercer%2Caps%2C241&sr=8-8

Edited June 18, 2019 by Doc Reeves

[ShaggyBevo RIP 3,868]

21 hours ago, crash_davis said:

when to hone versus when to sharpen?

Think of a knife's edge as teeth of a comb. Use gets those teeth out of alignment with each other.  The honing steel is the tool to get them all back in alignment. Use it frequently.  Sharpen once or twice a year.

[Asithappens 974]

2 hours ago, Doc Reeves said:

If you only want utility out of your knife, I would still highly recommend dropping $200 on a good Japanese chef knife that feels good to you. It’s really a valuable addition to anyone’s tool bag.

 

Maybe. 

There have been countless generations of grandmothers who got along without a $200 Jap knife. 

If you got the money then go for it. 

[Asithappens 974]

22 hours ago, crash_davis said:

when to hone versus when to sharpen?

Use the "cut a piece of paper" test. 

 

[Asithappens 974]

https://www.amazon.com/ChefsChoice-EdgeSelect-Professional-Sharpener-Sharpening/dp/B0018RSEMU

 

 This puts a 15 degree edge on your blade. ATK recommends this sharpener.

 

 

*** edit to add ***

while watching this, I was reminded: don't use a hard (i.e., glass) cutting board!

I know some who do this and it drives me out of mind. 

Edited June 18, 2019 by Asithappens

[Carl Spackler 3,560]

I'm wary of electric knife sharpeners for a variety of reasons, including the fact that you can really damage a blade unless you're careful, issues with heating and de-tempering blades, etc.  I've got a WorkSharp and so far it's been fine, but I find myself using my Sharpmaker and honing steel more. 

[Doc Reeves 6,434]

1 hour ago, Asithappens said:

Maybe. 

There have been countless generations of grandmothers who got along without a $200 Jap knife. 

If you got the money then go for it. 

 

you sound like you speak from extensive experience 

 

[Celery Man 21,036]

12 hours ago, ChampKind said:

Most Japanese knives with an oval or d-shaped handle are left/right handed. But truth be told, if you're using a pinch grip and not riding the hilt than it really doesn't affect grip. 

that's funny... I think I remember Alton Brown telling me (via good eats) how to hold the knife that way shortly after that, and I never put it together that that negates one of the issues i had with the Shun.

[Chopper 17,369]

Wirecutter has an article they keep updated, Build Your Own Knife Set. https://thewirecutter.com/lists/build-your-own-knife-set/

I'd follow their recommendations all the way.

[VABuckeye 2,472]

Got this from my son for Father’s Day.  It’s much lighter than my Shun chefs knife.  Can’t wait to use it. 

 

[52-80 19,285]

that looks like carbon steel.  i have this steel "eraser" from amazon thats great for taking off the surface stains.  also need good oil to treat the wood handle and even the blade

[ChampKind 1,314]

Got this from my son for Father’s Day.  It’s much lighter than my Shun chefs knife.  Can’t wait to use it. 
 

I recognize that kanji. Yoshihiro FTMFW. Enjoy that tool, and make sure you immediately clean and dry it after use. That looks like blue carbon steel with no stainless clad. You’ll quickly rust that blade without proper care

[midtown 3,348]

It's true about the carbon steel. It has to be dried within 10 - 15 mins. Just yesterday I was using mine and had too much going on with getting dinner on the table and I left my knife for 20 mins and it had tons of spots on it. No worries though. A scrubbing pad and some bartenders helper and all goos but it does scratch up the blade quite a bit

[VABuckeye 2,472]

On 6/20/2019 at 6:56 PM, ChampKind said:

 

I recognize that kanji. Yoshihiro FTMFW. Enjoy that tool, and make sure you immediately clean and dry it after use. That looks like blue carbon steel with no stainless clad. You’ll quickly rust that blade without proper care

 

Champkind,

Because of the care involved would you recommend that I trade the Yoshihiro in for another one of their chef's knives?  I'm a little worried about the high maintenance finish and they certainly make other chef's knives that would make me very happy.  Of course, I'd clear it with my son first as he gave it to me for Father's Day.

[WhatTheBuck 28,845]

On June 18, 2019 at 10:32 AM, gsoda3 said:

cutco makes the best steak knife i've ever used.  takes no effort to cut through things.  it's magnificent.

Mine have a curvature to the handles that allows them to rest snugly on the edge of the plate when not in my hand. I love that. 

[ChampKind 1,314]

Champkind,
Because of the care involved would you recommend that I trade the Yoshihiro in for another one of their chef's knives?  I'm a little worried about the high maintenance finish and they certainly make other chef's knives that would make me very happy.  Of course, I'd clear it with my son first as he gave it to me for Father's Day.

Nah, they’re not hard to take care of. Just wash it and dry it after you use it. High carbon blades are amazing.

But if you’re one of those folks who use a knife then throw it in the sink without cleaning, then you should prob exchange that blade for a stainless clad one.

[VABuckeye 2,472]

That's what I was hoping to hear.  I never want to exchange a gift from one of my kids.  Thanks.

[Celery Man 21,036]

Where do people get knives sharpened in South Austin?  I can't seem to confirm that they do that at Whole Foods Arbor Trails or Central Market Westgate.