The Boomers Ruined Everything

[Longhorn_Fan68 33843]

Is this the thread where we all agree on something?

[BradInATX 9208]

1 minute ago, Incredulity said:

Do some reading on Stagflation, Price Controls, Oil Embargo, Malaise, Cuyahoga River catching on fire, Three Mile Island, Watts Riots...

Yeah, enduring some very temporary events that briefly depress the stock market is certainly the same as a generation having to work literally 20x more hours to pay off a student loan than their parents did, or that an entry level job today doesn't even pay enough to rent a shithole apartment in the suburbs.

[BradInATX 9208]

1 minute ago, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

Is this the thread where we all agree on something?

I think everyone here pretty much thinks Joe Biden sucks too. That thread is mostly just hating on him and posting memes.

[GSU&UT 1798]

10 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

Is there evidence of this? Overwhelming majority? I'm really interested to know the answer.

Reagan got quite a grip on the young in the 1980s. I think UT voted majority GOP back then. That's post baby boom.

We've all been speaking anecdotally, but do you have something to prove what you say?

I know that the white males favor Trump. I know a lot of boomers do. I don't know that it's the overwhelming majority you claim. Do boomer females balance it out?

To me, who did white boomers overwhelmingly vote for? Are you going to tell me they haven't been voting almost straight GOP since Clinton? White millennials aren't too much better in this graph, but they've at least started to strongly shift away from the GOP.

 

[Incredulity 11564]

Just now, BradInATX said:

Yeah, enduring some very temporary events that briefly depress the stock market is certainly the same as a generation having to work literally 20x more hours to pay off a student loan than their parents did, or that an entry level job today doesn't even pay enough to rent a shithole apartment in the suburbs.

holy shit.

really?  good lord this is laughable.

 

[BradInATX 9208]

1 minute ago, Incredulity said:

holy shit.

really?  good lord this is laughable.

 

How?

[Pescado_Rojo 19331]

23 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Gen X gets WAY too much coddling in these discussions. There's a reason we're looking to the Millenials and the Zoomers to save us and we don't even bother asking Gen X. We know they're just as shit as the Boomers.

For one thing, we (Gen X) are a smaller generation sandwiched between the two largest generations, so we don't really have the numbers to force change that Millenials and Gen Z do. 

Gen X also seems to be the "Swing" generation, where the older part of the group seems to be more aligned with Boomers, and the younger part are more like millenials. I feel like the divide is at least partially tied to technology. I'm right in the middle of Gen X (Oct 1969 Birthday), and I saw my first computer in school in 8th grade, and I was in a magnet school for high achievers. Regular students in our school district didn't get access to computers until I was a Jr in High School, and even then it was an elective. 

[HenryJames 65890]

6 minutes ago, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

Is this the thread where we all agree on something?

No.

[Dbeasy 14967]

Like every country that has had to face new competition, America now has to deal with the rise of Asian and other global competitors. You can blame boomers and millennials all you want, but the bottom line is that a huge group of far less wealthy people with strong skills, work ethic and education are now taking wealth from America, just like America did from the world for a long time.

The cycle of wealth and opportunity requires this. If you can’t sell your stuff to someone else new, you can’t grow. It’s just math.

I read several paragraphs of the article and found it to be b.s. The country is just having to adjust to this new reality and it isn’t pretty. Europe had to do the same thing. Look to Europe for where America will head in the future. They now have workers councils and more powerful unions. They have less wealth as a percentage of the total available then they used to because America took it from them, just as China and India are doing today. It isn’t because boomers are any more greedy than any previous generation, or because millennials are lazy. It’s because the situation sucks and we are struggling dealing with it as a country.

[Incredulity 11564]

3 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

How?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stagflation#Explaining_the_1970s_stagflation

 

Start here.  

 

The 70's and 80's weren't a "world on a platter".  20% mortgage rates out front should have told you.

Edited June 24, 2019 by Incredulity

[BradInATX 9208]

2 minutes ago, Pescado_Rojo said:

For one thing, we (Gen X) are a smaller generation sandwiched between the two largest generations, so we don't really have the numbers to force change that Millenials and Gen Z do. 

Gen X also seems to be the "Swing" generation, where the older part of the group seems to be more aligned with Boomers, and the younger part are more like millenials. I feel like the divide is at least partially tied to technology. I'm right in the middle of Gen X (Oct 1969 Birthday), and I saw my first computer in school in 8th grade, and I was in a magnet school for high achievers. Regular students in our school district didn't get access to computers until I was a Jr in High School, and even then it was an elective. 

69 is early Gen X

[BradInATX 9208]

2 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stagflation#Explaining_the_1970s_stagflation

 

Start here.  

I'm very familiar with stagflation.

It caused a two year recession. Living through a recession doesn't make your generation special. Every generation has them.

However having an entire generation where their entire adult life, gaining entry into the middle class is almost impossible if you didn't start there - that's not something that your generation dealt with. You guys took all  of that opportunity, devoured it, and shit out a stratified world that the rest of us now have to deal with.

Edited June 24, 2019 by BradInATX

[Pescado_Rojo 19331]

Just now, BradInATX said:

69 is early Gen X

you calling me old? 

[HenryJames 65890]

3 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

69 is early Gen X

Billy Idol is 63.

[Incredulity 11564]

1 minute ago, BradInATX said:

I'm very familiar with stagflation.

It caused a two year recession. Living through a recession doesn't make your generation special. Every generation has them.

I'm not a boomer.  Never said they were special.  Your, "they got it handed to them" trope is laughable.

[RomaVicta 29784]

16 minutes ago, hpslugga said:

Did these issues face boomers when they were 21-37 years old? No

I've conceded the favorable aspects of the boomer situation. No doubt about that.

But the planet, at least the US environment, was a shitscape where fish couldn't live or couldn't be eaten in rivers passing through cities. Major city air was horrific. Nobody was putting checks on industry.

Boomers with money and those older than boomers, were behind the war on unions, lawyers, the press, and homosexuals. But the victims of those policies were also boomers who worked with their hands, had causes against big entities, relied on the credibility of the press to counter balance government corruption, or found themselves in love with someone of their own sex.

I guess I still see this as a political conflict rather than generational. What's interesting about this discussion is the number of anti-boomers who have clearly outgrown the emotions of youth and have arrived at conclusions based on thought. 

Is some of it just resentment about the good situation white male boomers were born into? That's something they (we) all have in common. I don't see embracing greed or rapine attitudes towards the planet as generally held by any generation.

I'm belaboring my point. I'll refer again to Sergeant Hartman about our general worth.

[Captainant 27451]

Just now, Incredulity said:

I'm not a boomer.  Never said they were special.  Your, "they got it handed to them" trope is laughable.

They didn't graduate from college under a mountain of non-dischargable student debt. They didn't enter the workforce earning a wage that hasn't increased proportionally to economic growth. They had unions protecting their interests. The US had singular world economic control in virtually every sector in the 60s and 70s. 

[Bateshorn 9899]

Hey, you dipshits do know the Millenials are in their 30s and have kids now, right? 

[RollLeft 5040]

Team boomers suck.  Millennials aren't worth the breath or time to comment. 

[Captainant 27451]

2 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

Is some of it just resentment about the good situation white male boomers were born into? That's something they (we) all have in common. I don't see embracing greed or rapine attitudes towards the planet as generally held by any generation.

It's the "fuck you, I got mine" attitude that we see in our parents and their friends, that we don't see in ourselves and our friends. Pulling the ladder up after yourself is a real dick move.

[wildcat09 29243]

8 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

I'm very familiar with stagflation.

It caused a two year recession. Living through a recession doesn't make your generation special. Every generation has them.

However having an entire generation where their entire adult life, gaining entry into the middle class is almost impossible if you didn't start there - that's not something that your generation dealt with. You guys took all  of that opportunity, devoured it, and shit out a stratified world that the rest of us now have to deal with.

Incredulity isn't a boomer. He's perpetually a college freshman. Not sure where that places him generationally.

[Incredulity 11564]

3 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Incredulity isn't a boomer. He's perpetually a college freshman. Not sure where that places him generationally.

Immortal?

[RomaVicta 29784]

14 minutes ago, GSU&UT said:

To me, who did white boomers overwhelmingly vote for? Are you going to tell me they haven't been voting almost straight GOP since Clinton? White millennials aren't too much better in this graph, but they've at least started to strongly shift away from the GOP.

 

Thanks for answering and posting the information. It seems to support my contention that the boomers are less homogenized than seems to be claimed. You don't show and "overwhelming majority" which is what I questioned. Your graph shows 53%.

I get the impression that you think I was challenging you. I was truly just asking for evidence without prejudice. Your graph could have showed 75% white boomer GOP for all I knew.

Read my posts above if you're inclined. I'm not making any claims about boomer virtue and I recognized the monstrous things facing millennials: absurd student debt and the possibility that the world could physically change and generate chaos that hasn't been seen in more than a thousand years.

Again, thanks for answering and posting the data.

 

[RomaVicta 29784]

23 minutes ago, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

Is this the thread where we all agree on something?

 

16 minutes ago, HenryJames said:

No.

Yes, it is!

[pyrohornIII 4809]

25 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

But Boomers are the people that continued to vote in politicians who enabled those corporate overlords.

They had to choose from politicians that were given them by the political parties,  silently appointed by big money.  One red crook vs one blue crook.  Only now are we seeing the grassroots movements taking off since the 2018 elections.

They are the greedy CEOs, they are the corrupt politicians.

Some are,  but most aren't.  Closest many get is holding stock of those corporations somehow. 

They still hold the majority of power in this country despite being well past their primes. They are the generation who embraced and worshipped greed and allowed it to go completely unchecked. They are the ones who somehow believe that everyone else is lazy and entitled despite their generation being handed numerous advantages that other generations never even sniffed.

All of this is true, and they have been indoctrinated that the lazy and entitled are coming for their assets, thus fear is used to maintain their vote and support.

As individuals, there are plenty of really great people amongst the Baby Boomers. But as a general bloc, fuck them.

The millennials are tasked with fixing an absolute shit sandwich that the boomers handed to them. And they probably will, much like the Silent generation created a better world for their asshole Boomer children.

Until we change our valuation system away from material accumulation, this will continue.   As many have pointed out, greed has been dictating things in our world for ages.  I for one don't think that makes it acceptable.  It's one of the deadly 7.  But slowly but surely, it definitely has been more normalized.  The eternal problem going forward is how to learn from previous generations mistakes.

 

[Incredulity 11564]

6 minutes ago, Captainant said:

They didn't graduate from college under a mountain of non-dischargable student debt. They didn't enter the workforce earning a wage that hasn't increased proportionally to economic growth. They had unions protecting their interests. The US had singular world economic control in virtually every sector in the 60s and 70s. 

 

 

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019/04/50-years-of-us-wages-in-one-chart/

[Pig Bellmont 8691]

You know how much my dad’s first house cost? About $38,000. Yet we still grew up with the expectation we could afford the same standard of living. I’m not exactly sure what’s all to blame, but it’s borked. 

[Captainant 27451]

3 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

 

 

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019/04/50-years-of-us-wages-in-one-chart/

Just so you know, your chart is proving my point. Wages are the same now as they were in the 70s. More clearly, here's a chart that nicely visualizes the point I'm making:

Wage growth has not kept up across the board.

Just now, Pig Bellmont said:

You know how much my dad’s first house cost? About $38,000. Yet we still grew up with the expectation we could afford the same standard of living. I’m not exactly sure what’s all to blame, but it’s borked. 

Boomers buying "investment properties" that they rent out. More and more, home ownership isn't for the people who live in the homes.

[pyrohornIII 4809]

I think it's telling that I only think of white males when I think of generations in discussions like this...politics and economy.   Think it has to do with growing up in the 60-70s where pretty much every person we saw on TV in these fields were in that demographic. 

GSU's graphs brought that to mind. 

 

[Incredulity 11564]

6 minutes ago, Pig Bellmont said:

You know how much my dad’s first house cost? About $38,000. Yet we still grew up with the expectation we could afford the same standard of living. I’m not exactly sure what’s all to blame, but it’s borked. 

Ok, and what was the bed/bath count?  How many car garage? What were the SDC costs associated with that development?...

[Incredulity 11564]

3 minutes ago, Captainant said:

Just so you know, your chart is proving my point. Wages are the same now as they were in the 70s. More clearly, here's a chart that nicely visualizes the point I'm making:

Wage growth has not kept up across the board.

Boomers buying "investment properties" that they rent out. More and more, home ownership isn't for the people who live in the homes.

Your chart ends in 2010.  convenient.

[Mojo Hand 4580]

44 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

I've conceded the favorable aspects of the boomer situation. No doubt about that.

But the planet, at least the US environment, was a shitscape where fish couldn't live or couldn't be eaten in rivers passing through cities. Major city air was horrific. Nobody was putting checks on industry.

Boomers with money and those older than boomers, were behind the war on unions, lawyers, the press, and homosexuals. But the victims of those policies were also boomers who worked with their hands, had causes against big entities, relied on the credibility of the press to counter balance government corruption, or found themselves in love with someone of their own sex.

I guess I still see this as a political conflict rather than generational. What's interesting about this discussion is the number of anti-boomers who have clearly outgrown the emotions of youth and have arrived at conclusions based on thought. 

Is some of it just resentment about the good situation white male boomers were born into? That's something they (we) all have in common. I don't see embracing greed or rapine attitudes towards the planet as generally held by any generation.

I'm belaboring my point. I'll refer again to Sergeant Hartman about our general worth.

Did you read the article in the OP?  It doesn't seem to be reflected in any of your points.  The article highlights a number of destructive trends that worsened as Boomers gained political power and took over the government -- trends that coincidentally happened to benefit them at the expense of future generations.   Sure, no generation is monolithic.   And Boomers were not the sole group with political power at various points in time.  But I don't see how anyone can deny a large generational component to many policies that were enacted during the Boomers' political ascendancy and control.  The 1994 crime bill that locked up a generation of largely minority youth was bipartisan.   The 2005 bankruptcy bill making private student lending a high rate, no risk, no escape proposition -- among numerous other giveaways to banks -- was bipartisan.   The great recession that derailed the careers of millennials for years was largely the product of bipartisan financial deregulation in the 1990s.  And the one ironclad rule in all of the discussions about the future of social security and medicare is that everyone who is a Boomer will be protected.

And, although not every individual Boomer benefited from those generational advantages, they seem to have done pretty well as a generation:

I'd like the see the chart continued after the great recession shook out, but as Boomers aged, the generational wealth gap increased strikingly. 

Edited June 24, 2019 by Mojo Hand

[Captainant 27451]

2 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

Your chart ends in 2010.  convenient.

Well, that would be because the data in that chart is gathered via the census lol. So yeah, I can't really reference data that hasn't been collected yet. Sorry about the whole timeline thing.

[Fozzz 152]

As I’ve said before, if you are laying the blame for our situation at the feet of particular people or groups of people, then you simply have no clue as to what’s going on or even how our society works. 

[Incredulity 11564]

1 minute ago, Captainant said:

Well, that would be because the data in that chart is gathered via the census lol. So yeah, I can't really reference data that hasn't been collected yet. Sorry about the whole timeline thing.

yeah, I wonder if some economic catastrophe happened around 2008/2009 that might skew that data.  hmmm...

[Captainant 27451]

5 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

yeah, I wonder if some economic catastrophe happened around 2008/2009 that might skew that data.  hmmm...

I was more referencing how starting in the 80s, wage growth trends started significantly favoring top earners instead of the lower/middle earners. Which is the systemic argument I've been making in this thread. But good on you for trying to find a reason to discount the actual data 

Edited June 24, 2019 by Captainant

[RollLeft 5040]

Just now, Fozzz said:

As I’ve said before, if you are laying the blame for our situation at the feet of particular people or groups of people, then you simply have no clue as to what’s going on or even how our society works. 

If you think a thread saying boomers suck is the same as laying the blame for "our" (whatever the fuck that means) situation then you don't know how the shag works.  

[GSU&UT 1798]

31 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

Thanks for answering and posting the information. It seems to support my contention that the boomers are less homogenized than seems to be claimed. You don't show and "overwhelming majority" which is what I questioned. Your graph shows 53%.

I get the impression that you think I was challenging you. I was truly just asking for evidence without prejudice. Your graph could have showed 75% white boomer GOP for all I knew.

Read my posts above if you're inclined. I'm not making any claims about boomer virtue and I recognized the monstrous things facing millennials: absurd student debt and the possibility that the world could physically change and generate chaos that hasn't been seen in more than a thousand years.

Again, thanks for answering and posting the data.

 

Yes it's not 75%, but 53-41 in an election is a double digit landslide victory and I'm viewing it through that lense. I think you'd agree.

[wildcat09 29243]

1 minute ago, Captainant said:

I was more referencing how starting in the 70s, wage growth trends started significantly favoring top earners instead of the lower/middle earners. Which is the systemic argument I've been making in this thread. But good on you for trying to find a reason to discount the actual data 

Median wages were stagnant through the early aughts as well.  It's not like everyone was reaping the benefits of economic growth until 2008 hit.

[Texas Jeff 1932]

Man, I'm happy to be early Gen X at this point.  Too young to be stuck at home addicted to Fox News, too old to be stuck on my phone with pressure to maintain a constant online presence.  I know I got gifts from low tuition, a rising stock market, emerging technology jobs, and a relative lack of warfare from 1975 through 2000.

However, student debt does not happen accidentally.  People sign up for it.  We need to tell folks the implications of borrowing money for school before they do it.  Here is what you are going to borrow, here is the job you will get if you pass your classes, here is the chance of getting that job and here is what it pays and how long it will take you to pay off the debt.  Everyone should see that before they receive the money.

Also, today's students have a ton of options to learn on their own, for free.  You can go through all of the math most people would ever need on Khan Academy, watch crazy amounts of free lectures, learn on YouTube, whatever.  It has never been easier to learn for free, if you are motivated.

My high school had exactly 5 computers for 2400 kids.  No dial up connections, bring your own floppy if you wanted to save something.  Everyone in my kid's high school has a Chromebook with free Wifi access to an Internet that is the largest repository of information ever created.  Almost all have a personal phone they can use to call or message almost anyone anywhere for no cost other than the monthly fee for the device.  They have cheap access to more music than they could listen to in a lifetime.  It has never been easier to collaborate.

My high school offered one AP class.  Today, kids may graduate with 8-10 AP classes and a big start towards a degree.  There are "early college" high schools that guide kids through associates degrees by the time they graduate high school.  Bill Gates had to sell software by creating software, floppy disks, manuals, getting distribution, having inventory.  Today, a smart kid can write an app or create something on the web for almost no upfront costs with no inventory.

The path to success is there, but the spoils for this generation are likely to be more narrowly distributed.  Some will get through college in three years, start an online something and be flush with cash by 30.  Others will spend $250k on a degree for a job that pays $40k and wake up at 30 wondering what the heck happened.  I wish we did a better job of explaining this to 18 year olds, so they could see the future impact of their choices.

[RomaVicta 29784]

8 minutes ago, GSU&UT said:

Yes it's not 75%, but 53-41 in an election is a double digit landslide victory and I'm viewing it through that lense. I think you'd agree.

It's embarrassing, no doubt, but the significant number seems to be 53%. Everybody else did not vote GOP, if I'm reading it correctly. A 6% margin is nothing to sneeze at to be sure. 

[RomaVicta 29784]

21 minutes ago, Mojo Hand said:

Did you read the article in the OP?  It doesn't seem to be reflected in any of your points.  The article highlights a number of destructive trends that worsened as Boomers gained political power and took over the government -- trends that coincidentally happened to benefit them at the expense of future generations.   Sure, no generation is monolithic.   And Boomers were not the sole group with political power at various points in time.  But I don't see how anyone can deny a large generational component to many policies that were enacted during the Boomers' political ascendancy and control.  The 1994 crime bill that locked up a generation of largely minority youth was bipartisan.   The 2005 bankruptcy bill making private student lending a high rate, no risk, no escape proposition -- among numerous other giveaways to banks -- was bipartisan.   The great recession that derailed the careers of millennials for years was largely the product of bipartisan financial deregulation in the 1990s.  And the one ironclad rule in all of the discussions about the future of social security and medicare is that everyone who is a Boomer will be protected.

And, although not every individual Boomer benefited from those generational advantages, they seem to have done pretty well as a generation:

I'd like the see the chart continued after the great recession shook out, but as Boomers aged, the generational wealth gap increased strikingly. 

It's still painting with a broad brush.  Why not just say Republican boomers or wealthy boomers or rural boomers or whatever?

No, I didn't read the OP. I was mostly responding to comments in the thread.

[Hornius Emeritus 12419]

No generation is any greater or any worse than any other generation. They are all just facing a different set of circumstances and trying as best they can to muddle through.

[Sbbruin 21733]

[Incredulity 11564]

Just now, Texas Jeff said:

 

However, student debt does not happen accidentally.  People sign up for it.  We need to tell folks the implications of borrowing money for school before they do it.  Here is what you are going to borrow, here is the job you will get if you pass your classes, here is the chance of getting that job and here is what it pays and how long it will take you to pay off the debt.  Everyone should see that before they receive the money.

 

They definitely get informed on amount of debt and debt servicing cost.

https://www.consumerfinance.gov/policy-compliance/rulemaking/regulations/1026/H/#69be41ace261016e4228e2d459607fde5d760938b44d0bd8e7ddb8f8

[Fozzz 152]

15 minutes ago, RollLeft said:

If you think a thread saying boomers suck is the same as laying the blame for "our" (whatever the fuck that means) situation then you don't know how the shag works.  

The situation we currently find ourselves in with respect stagnant/declining real wages, declining health and quality of life, and the suicide epidemic I mentioned above.  The boomers didn't bring those things about - capitalism did.  

[GSU&UT 1798]

6 minutes ago, Texas Jeff said:

Man, I'm happy to be early Gen X at this point.  Too young to be stuck at home addicted to Fox News, too old to be stuck on my phone with pressure to maintain a constant online presence.  I know I got gifts from low tuition, a rising stock market, emerging technology jobs, and a relative lack of warfare from 1975 through 2000.

However, student debt does not happen accidentally.  People sign up for it.  We need to tell folks the implications of borrowing money for school before they do it.  Here is what you are going to borrow, here is the job you will get if you pass your classes, here is the chance of getting that job and here is what it pays and how long it will take you to pay off the debt.  Everyone should see that before they receive the money.

Also, today's students have a ton of options to learn on their own, for free.  You can go through all of the math most people would ever need on Khan Academy, watch crazy amounts of free lectures, learn on YouTube, whatever.  It has never been easier to learn for free, if you are motivated.

I think probably most everyone ITT would agree that you shouldn't need college to have a life where you gain savings. I think most would agree that many of their college-educated-required entry-level jobs didn't really take a college education to be able to perform. The biggest thing in all of this that I wish more people would talk about (at least those who bring up the college isn't for everyone argument) is that most large white-collar employers require a college degree.

There are only so many lab tech, trade skill, etc. jobs out there, and yes I am aware that there supposedly isn't enough skilled labor to fill these jobs. The good thing is that due to the economy, at least the employers are finally starting to realize they have to pay for kids to go to a trade school and/or offer much better benefits.

[CO Horn 154]

25 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

yeah, I wonder if some economic catastrophe happened around 2008/2009 that might skew that data.  hmmm...

I see where you're going. A negro was living in the White House!

[RollLeft 5040]

 

 

1

4 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

The situation we currently find ourselves in with respect stagnant/declining real wages, declining health and quality of life, and the suicide epidemic I mentioned above.  The boomers didn't bring those things about - capitalism did.  

And there it is.  

[Mojo Hand 4580]

2 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

It's still painting with a broad brush.  Why not just say Republican boomers or wealthy boomers or rural boomers or whatever?

No, I didn't read the OP. I was mostly responding to comments in the thread.

The OP that you didn't read says why.   Boomers as a generation uniquely used their political power, in a bipartisan way, to benefit themselves and screw over future generations in a myriad of ways.  And it's necessary to recognize the generational nature of their actions in order to fix them.