Interesting angle: cali to pay college players

[Thermos H. Christ 478]

8 minutes ago, ChickenSandwich said:

For Tax purposes, would all of the benefits a scholarship gives the athlete be subject to taxes as well?

Free room, board, tuition, tutoring, health care, travel expenses and clothing etc etc 

Do these now become non-exempt benefits when a player decides to cash in on their likeness?

Will the majority be able to earn more than the benefits they already receive? 

Why would the scholarship benefits become taxable? Pretty sure lots of non-athlete students have income from other sources, and that doesn't make their scholarships taxable income.

Why would the question be whether they can earn more than what they get now? Are they going to stop getting what they get now? And why would that be the case? If the school can afford to hand out scholarships now, they can afford to hand out scholarships whether or not the athletes have income from third parties. It's irrelevant.

[Loco 3,752]

6 minutes ago, Thermos H. Christ said:

They don't need street agents, per the law they're allowed to have professional agents for this. And there's no need for the USC booster to do this winking nonsense, they can just make it known that they offer to to buy non-exclusive image rights from every USC player who makes it on the roster and say have your agent call me when you get to campus. If you become a star, maybe they even exercise those image rights and put you on a billboard or a TV spot, if not you get paid anyway.

Might as well just make it above board. And it doesn't cost the schools or the NCAA anything - all the compensation comes from third parties. The schools get to keep all the money they're making already.

Sure that could work.   But the extended friends and family aren't going to get paid like that.  

I wonder what Nike/Oregon and Under Armor/Maryland think of all this?   They have to sign talent but doing so would hurt their benefactor schools.  

I wonder what this would do to the player sponsored by Nike playing for an Under Armor team?

[Brian Fantana 6,668]

2 minutes ago, Thermos H. Christ said:

Why would the scholarship benefits become taxable? Pretty sure lots of non-athlete students have income from other sources, and that doesn't make their scholarships taxable income.

Why would the question be whether they can earn more than what they get now? Are they going to stop getting what they get now? And why would that be the case? If the school can afford to hand out scholarships now, they can afford to hand out scholarships whether or not the athletes have income from third parties. It's irrelevant.

If you have a job as a scholarship student, then your income does become taxable at a certain threshold (I'm not sure of the actual number). I imagine the same would apply to scholarship student athletes that get money from endorsement deals, etc.

[PencilPusher 454]

nm

Edited September 30, 2019 by PencilPusher
nm

[Beau Vine 54,013]

33 minutes ago, MonkeyDoughnut said:

The tax target is not these few players, its the NCAA. Using these players to help get to the NCAA and its billions is the end goal (rightfully so)

Whoa, boy this should be good.  Could you explain this plan in a little more detail?

[Thermos H. Christ 478]

1 minute ago, Loco said:

Sure that could work.   But the extended friends and family aren't going to get paid like that.  

I wonder what Nike/Oregon and Under Armor/Maryland think of all this?   They have to sign talent but doing so would hurt their benefactor schools.  

I wonder what this would do to the player sponsored by Nike playing for an Under Armor team?

As far as the hangers on not getting paid... good? Or if they're able to manipulate the kid enough to profit off them as it is, they can probably manipulate the kid into sharing the wealth with them when they're getting paid above board.

I imagine Oregon be delighted to have Nike as their patron, how many kids would be attracted to Oregon because it comes with a Nike endorsement deal attached? Same with Maryland and Under Armor. I guess it could create some friction if Nike is trying to make deals with USC but USC is annoyed at Nike luring recruits away to Oregon? But I doubt either side would get so mad about it they would decline to make money doing business with each other.

[MonkeyDoughnut 10,150]

2 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

Whoa, boy this should be good.  Could you explain this plan in a little more detail?

This will save me much typing: https://www.thenation.com/article/march-madness-tax-exemption-inequality/

Basically NCAA hides behind amateurism for its tax-free status which this California bill is basically saying - "hey these players not are amateurs and should be paid accordingly".

 

[Loco 3,752]

1 minute ago, Thermos H. Christ said:

As far as the hangers on not getting paid... good? Or if they're able to manipulate the kid enough to profit off them as it is, they can probably manipulate the kid into sharing the wealth with them when they're getting paid above board.

I imagine Oregon be delighted to have Nike as their patron, how many kids would be attracted to Oregon because it comes with a Nike endorsement deal attached? Same with Maryland and Under Armor. I guess it could create some friction if Nike is trying to make deals with USC but USC is annoyed at Nike luring recruits away to Oregon? But I doubt either side would get so mad about it they would decline to make money doing business with each other.

Oregon & Maryland are not in California...  so unless those legislatures get on board..  that was my point.

As for family manipulation, some of these kids aren't 18 yet.  Mom & Dad will decide where they go.  How is a poor Georgia kid gonna take a trip to Cali?

[MonkeyDoughnut 10,150]

11 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

If you have a job as a scholarship student, then your income does become taxable at a certain threshold (I'm not sure of the actual number). I imagine the same would apply to scholarship student athletes that get money from endorsement deals, etc.

Room and board portion of scholarship is taxable

[Thermos H. Christ 478]

12 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

If you have a job as a scholarship student, then your income does become taxable at a certain threshold (I'm not sure of the actual number). I imagine the same would apply to scholarship student athletes that get money from endorsement deals, etc.

I'm no tax lawyer/accountant but if I remember right from my days at UT,  scholarship money came in the form of a check each semester and to the extent that I didn't spend the money on tuition or books (possibly some other categories?) it was taxable. And of course the money I made at my job was taxed as well. So I assume it would work the same way for athletes. I don't know but I kind of doubt the schools are writing the football players a check, that sounds like asking for trouble. I'm guessing they just say you don't owe us any tuition money and here are your free books and here is your dorm room and the cafeteria is over there.

Edited September 30, 2019 by Thermos H. Christ

[Beau Vine 54,013]

4 minutes ago, Loco said:

As for family manipulation, some of these kids aren't 18 yet.  Mom & Dad will decide where they go.  How is a poor Georgia kid gonna take a trip to Cali?

How do they do that now?

[Thermos H. Christ 478]

For official visits the school can fly them out and put them up in a hotel room with cookie cakes.

Edited September 30, 2019 by Thermos H. Christ

[Huckleberry 32,710]

4 minutes ago, Thermos H. Christ said:

I'm no tax lawyer/accountant but if I remember right from my days at UT,  scholarship money came in the form of a check each semester and to the extent that I didn't spend the money on tuition or books (possibly some other categories?) it was taxable. And of course the money I made at my job was taxed as well. So I assume it would work the same way for athletes. I don't know but I kind of doubt the schools are writing the football players a check, that sounds like asking for trouble. I'm guessing they just say you don't owe us any tuition money and here are your free books and here is your dorm room and the cafeteria is over there.

That's pretty much it, but room and board are taxable.

[Tex Long 4,352]

TL;DR

I'ma take it as a done deal, but with details to be worked out... like...

When the Four Talking Heads opine on Saturday evenings while showing highlights and replays, will they need to pay Tua or Sam or Joe for using their image, name, or likeness? Will it make a difference if the players are in uniform? Will the players have to negotiate their own deals, or will they be able to hire agents to work things out for them?

[MonkeyDoughnut 10,150]

26 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

So you understand and acknowledge that it's commonplace and perfectly understandable that UT gave me academic scholarships because they believed it raised the profile of the school to have me attend, then I used the UT brand to gain employment not only after school but while still attending school, and the University did not ask me for any silly franchise fee.

But you don't understand or acknowledge that it would make sense for UT to give a player athletic scholarships because they believe it would raise the profile of the school to have them attend, then for the athlete to use the UT brand to gain employment not only after school but while still attending school, and for the University not to ask for a silly franchise fee.

Somehow in the first example you understand that it's not free but that's okay because that cost is covered by scholarships and a franchise fee would be absurd. But in the second example you can't quite grasp that it's not free but that's okay because the cost is covered by scholarships and a franchise fee would be absurd.

No, I see students and student-athletes as two distinct groups with different benefits and requirements.

[Tex Long 4,352]

4 minutes ago, MonkeyDoughnut said:

No, I see

No, you don't.

[Beau Vine 54,013]

4 minutes ago, MonkeyDoughnut said:

No, I see students and student-athletes as two distinct groups with different benefits and requirements.

How many distinct groups with different benefits and requirements do you see on a college campus?

Are students who are theatre majors and acting in plays a distinct group?

How about student-musicians?

What about accounting majors who are required to get an internship during their junior year?  Are they different than history majors?

[JBJ 3,649]

Endorsement-revenue sharing (franchise fee) isn't an uncommon practice.  But I don't expect the eventual NCAA model will use it, or will only use it for robinhood-type disbursement.

I say that because the leagues that do it tend to have teams with endorsement-based or winnings-based revenue and the leagues that don't tend to have media-based revenue - and NCAA football falls into the latter.

Also, comparing endorsement money to a summer job is stupid.

[pops 6,974]

52 minutes ago, Loco said:

Sure that could work.   But the extended friends and family aren't going to get paid like that.  

I wonder what Nike/Oregon and Under Armor/Maryland think of all this?   They have to sign talent but doing so would hurt their benefactor schools.  

I wonder what this would do to the player sponsored by Nike playing for an Under Armor team?

The way it is written, the kid can't accept a deal from a company different than the one sponsoring the school. So a USC kid could get a Nike deal but not UA or Adidas. 

[MonkeyDoughnut 10,150]

1 hour ago, utee94 said:

The skeezy street agents, "trainers," "7 on 7 coaches," and other superfluous intermediaries are the real victims here.  How will Willie Lyles feed his family???

 

actually the law as written allows for hiring agents...

[utee94 15,746]

18 minutes ago, MonkeyDoughnut said:

actually the law as written allows for hiring agents...

I know.  I'm not talking about agents.  I'm talking about street agents.  Not the same thing.

[MonkeyDoughnut 10,150]

5 minutes ago, utee94 said:

I know.  I'm not talking about agents.  I'm talking about street agents.  Not the same thing.

If I'm Lyles of FWK that's what I'm going to be very soon... gathering all kinds of talent in middle / high school under my umbrella in order to be able to represent them either individually or likely in package deals in return for a piece of the action. Previously would be under the table, will now being moving above the table. Getting all kinds of larger sponsorship deals along the way. 

[utee94 15,746]

1 minute ago, MonkeyDoughnut said:

If I'm Lyles of FWK that's what I'm going to be very soon... gathering all kinds of talent in middle / high school under my umbrella in order to be able to represent them either individually or likely in package deals in return for a piece of the action. Previously would be under the table, will now being moving above the table. Getting all kinds of larger sponsorship deals along the way. 

Sure that's what those guys will try to do, but athletes will have the choice of going with actual legitimate, experienced agents, rather than the skeezy leeches and hangers-on the current system forces upon them.  They won't need to deal with the seedy dudes because the payments will be above the table now.  Some of them will still get tricked by skeezy losers, but at least they'll have the choice and the smart ones will choose legit agents rather than the losers.

 

 

[JMFP 1,117]

The way it is written, the kid can't accept a deal from a company different than the one sponsoring the school. So a USC kid could get a Nike deal but not UA or Adidas. 

They can always transfer to get a better deal...

[bamachine 1,230]

26 minutes ago, JMFP said:

1 hour ago, pops said:

The way it is written, the kid can't accept a deal from a company different than the one sponsoring the school. So a USC kid could get a Nike deal but not UA or Adidas. 

They can always transfer to get a better deal...

Through the Starbucks Portal of Transferriness.

Soon, you will see individual players out there with Nascar style patches all over their uniforms and thanking Reece's along with God in their postgame interviews.

[Thermos H. Christ 478]

Right, just like how the NFL and NBA have players wearing patches for their personal sponsors all over their uniforms, because that's totally inevitable in any sports league that allows players to get paid for endorsements.

[notre dame joe 173]

49 minutes ago, utee94 said:

Sure that's what those guys will try to do, but athletes will have the choice of going with actual legitimate, experienced agents, rather than the skeezy leeches and hangers-on the current system forces upon them.  They won't need to deal with the seedy dudes because the payments will be above the table now.  Some of them will still get tricked by skeezy losers, but at least they'll have the choice and the smart ones will choose legit agents rather than the losers.

 

 

CFB needs some fall practice holdout stories 🙄

[Neonmoon 38,127]

Let’s say that everyone is basically going to start paying players (yes I realize it’s not the school, whatever, they will arrange)

I wonder if SEC model will be hurt with the addition of other parties. Meaning will they get outbid? Or all the rich schools already pay anyway so probably not?

[bamachine 1,230]

15 minutes ago, Thermos H. Christ said:

Right, just like how the NFL and NBA have players wearing patches for their personal sponsors all over their uniforms, because that's totally inevitable in any sports league that allows players to get paid for endorsements.

Twas a joke.

[Catdaddyhorn 3,444]

9 hours ago, Junior Miller said:

This needed to happen. I dont think universities should pay players directly because that just opens up a massive can of worms and leads to things like 17/18 yr old kids being legally responsible for paying federal and state taxes on wages earned in multiple states. Kids aren't prepared for that and the IRS would be in the position of potentially incarcerating and ruining the lives of a lot of young men for not paying taxes over mutiple states when they were 17. 

That said they should definitely be allowed to profit off their likeness/image. 

Where do people get this idea that none of these guys ever had a job before? Or that a job and taxes for an 18 to 23 year old person is some ridiculously complex thing to be responsible for?

[Catdaddyhorn 3,444]

5 hours ago, Huckleberry said:

I'm scared. I had a paid internship between my junior and senior years at UT. I got the job because I was a mechanical engineering major at the University of Texas with a good GPA. If I hadn't been attending UT I wouldn't have gotten the job.

Now for the scary part. I never paid UT a franchise fee even though the University's brand was key in my acquisition of that employment. Is UT going to sue me if they find out? Scary times.

Don't you realize Zuckerberg is currently paying Harvard a healthy sum for giving him access to their facilities and students when he launched Facebook. And the Google founders are paying both Stanford and the prof who assigned them the project that resulted in Google. 

[Junior Miller 1,502]

36 minutes ago, Catdaddyhorn said:

Where do people get this idea that none of these guys ever had a job before? Or that a job and taxes for an 18 to 23 year old person is some ridiculously complex thing to be responsible for?

There's a massive massive massive difference between a simple 1040EZ one w2 job that anybody can do taxes on and having to pay federal and state taxes in each state you play a game for each states' own tax code with no withholdings. You need a dedicated tax CPA to do that due to the complexity and what are the odds these kids don't screw that up royally? 

Edited October 1, 2019 by Junior Miller

[Catdaddyhorn 3,444]

1 minute ago, Junior Miller said:

There's a massive massive massive difference between a simple 1040EZ one w2 job that anybody can do taxes on and having to pay federal and state taxes in each state you play a game for each States on tax code with no withholdings. You need a dedicated tax CPA to do that due to the complexity and what are the odds these kids don't screw that up royally? 

Why would they need to pay state taxes in different states? Is the school suddenly going to start to pay them game checks? 

[Junior Miller 1,502]

12 minutes ago, Catdaddyhorn said:

Why would they need to pay state taxes in different states? Is the school suddenly going to start to pay them game checks? 

Yeah. I can't see any way they can get out of having to pay taxes for each individual game since their pay is based on games. Once the university starts cutting them checks they're going to be classified the same as professional athletes as far as earnings go. There's already precedent with professional athletes who pay taxes based on the venue of games/competitions. So not only does that open up a whole multitude of tax implications that the vast majority of 18 year olds aren't going to be disciplined enough to handle, but it'll also open up to things like collective bargaining, arbitration, strikes and lockouts, etc. 

that's a whole big pile of Pandora's bullshit that need to stay in the box and can easily be rectified by just allowing them to sign with an agent and take endorsements. That way you don't have to worry about who makes what as the people who are the stars and responsible for the excitement will be the ones who can make the most money. 

Edited October 1, 2019 by Junior Miller

[Beau Vine 54,013]

15 minutes ago, Junior Miller said:

There's a massive massive massive difference between a simple 1040EZ one w2 job that anybody can do taxes on and having to pay federal and state taxes in each state you play a game for each states' own tax code with no withholdings. You need a dedicated tax CPA to do that due to the complexity and what are the odds these kids don't screw that up royally? 

Goddammit, they're not being paid to play games.  This shouldn't be this fucking hard to understand.

[bamachine 1,230]

Gimme a couple minutes and I can whip up a bill for the state of Alabama to enact unanimously, within the hour.

[Catdaddyhorn 3,444]

Just now, Junior Miller said:

Yeah. I can't see any way they can get out of having to pay taxes for each individual game since their pay is based on games. Once the university starts cutting them checks they're going to be classified the same as professional athletes as far as earnings go. So not only does that open up a whole multitude of tax implications that the vast majority of 18 year olds aren't going to be disciplined enough to handle, but it'll also open up to things like collective bargaining, arbitration, strikes and lockouts, etc. 

that's a whole big pile of Pandora's bullshit that need to stay in the box and can easily be rectified by just allowing them to sign with an agent and take endorsements. That way you don't have to worry about who makes what as the people who are the stars and responsible for the excitement will be the ones who can make the most money. 

Someone in this post has a gross misunderstanding of what's actually taking place here. 

[Beau Vine 54,013]

2 minutes ago, Junior Miller said:

Yeah. I can't see any way they can get out of having to pay taxes for each individual game since their pay is based on games. Once the university starts cutting them checks they're

What the fuck, dude?

[Machinator 32,098]

Why all this talk about game checks?

[Catdaddyhorn 3,444]

Because diction, syntax, and words in general are hard to understand. ESpecially when you're dead set determined to read things that aren't actually on the page. 

[utee94 15,746]

Y'all are getting trolled.

 

[Zavala 1,384]

5 hours ago, Loco said:

Sure that could work.   But the extended friends and family aren't going to get paid like that.  

I wonder what Nike/Oregon and Under Armor/Maryland think of all this?   They have to sign talent but doing so would hurt their benefactor schools.  

I wonder what this would do to the player sponsored by Nike playing for an Under Armor team?

[Poolflood 845]

The current rules weren't pulled out of the ether.  In part it was to prevent shits like switzer, Meyers, collins, sherrill etc. from buying players.  I don't have the answer and I know UT will be one of the "winners" but it's going to turn college football into the NFL without a salary cap.

[Huckleberry 32,710]

2 minutes ago, Poolflood said:

The current rules weren't pulled out of the ether.  In part it was to prevent shits like switzer, Meyers, collins, sherrill etc. from buying players.  I don't have the answer and I know UT will be one of the "winners" but it's going to turn college football into the NFL without a salary cap.

How'd that work out?

Edited October 1, 2019 by Huckleberry

[notre dame joe 173]

3 minutes ago, Poolflood said:

The current rules weren't pulled out of the ether.  In part it was to prevent shits like switzer, Meyers, collins, sherrill etc. from buying players.  I don't have the answer and I know UT will be one of the "winners" but it's going to turn college football into the NFL without a salary cap.

When the dust settles, the athletes will wind up with "something" and it will be relatively small.  The adults will never vote to hand their earnings over to the youths.

[Poolflood 845]

4 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

How'd that work out?

Well  for switzer 74, 75 and 85 didn't suck.

[Beau Vine 54,013]

26 minutes ago, utee94 said:

Y'all are getting trolled.

 

When the stupidity started with the OP's naming of the thread, I don't see the need to assume trolls.  

[Beau Vine 54,013]

16 minutes ago, Poolflood said:

The current rules weren't pulled out of the ether.  In part it was to prevent shits like switzer, Meyers, collins, sherrill etc. from buying players.  I don't have the answer and I know UT will be one of the "winners" but it's going to turn college football into the NFL without a salary cap.

[Junior Miller 1,502]

48 minutes ago, Catdaddyhorn said:

Someone in this post has a gross misunderstanding of what's actually taking place here. 

Go back and read my original post from today. I said I'm all for what California is doing As far as letting them profit from their image and likeness. 

Then I said I AM AGAINST UNIVERSITIES PAYING THE PLAYERS DIRECTLY for the reasons I stated above. 

[Junior Miller 1,502]

11 hours ago, Junior Miller said:

This needed to happen. I dont think universities should pay players directly because that just opens up a massive can of worms and leads to things like 17/18 yr old kids being legally responsible for paying federal and state taxes on wages earned in multiple states. Kids aren't prepared for that and the IRS would be in the position of potentially incarcerating and ruining the lives of a lot of young men for not paying taxes over mutiple states when they were 17. 

That said they should definitely be allowed to profit off their likeness/image. 

Here from 12 hours ago. Made it easy for you. 

I wasn't saying California or this case is saying the universities should pay players. I was outlining why taking it a step further and having the universities pay players the way people like Jay Bilas and Kenny Smith advocate would be a terrible idea.