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Student Loan Reparations (Policy Talk)

bad_teammate

By bad_teammate
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formermav43

formermav43 4607

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Posted
8 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

A reparation, in legal terms, is (typically) money paid as compensation for a loss. I apologize if the proper use of a term hurt your feelings.

You’re being disingenuous. “Reparations” in contemporary discourse immediately evokes the specific case of reparations for slavery. It’s emotionally charged language; you know this, and you chose it deliberately.

 

 

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bad_teammate

bad_teammate 13481

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Just now, formermav43 said:

You’re being disingenuous. “Reparations” in contemporary discourse immediately evokes the specific case of reparations for slavery. It’s emotionally charged language; you know this, and you chose it deliberately.

No, I chose it because it's what the policy proposal I linked (which was the source for this intended discussion) says.

The headline is, "Providing Reparations for Victims of Unfree College"

And the words is used 10+ times throughout the article, which I'm sure you didn't read or even open.

 

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FondrenRoad

FondrenRoad 4378

Posted
Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Ah, so you're arguing that money I spent in the past has no relevance to the present or future?

I would disagree. I think $50k spent on repaying loans could've been invested in real estate, or a business (either your own or someone else's), or myriad other things that would have, if done, made someone's life better. Opportunity costs are real things and I don't think they are a myth.

Opportunity costs exists for millions of decisions.  You chose this one, and this one alone, because it affects your peer group.  Let's be clear though.  This type of thing is what opens Democratic Socialists to attack.  People with student loans aren't the real poor people in this country nor are they the ones with the most oppressive debt.  What about credit card debt?  Mortgages?  Failed businesses?   Why are student loans your primary, if not only, focus. 

22 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

You're not answering my question, Mike Rowe.

You think the 17/18/19-year-old kids who took on these loans really understood what they meant and that the larger social message of "college will make you rich" was accurate and true?

I don't recall anyone telling me college would make me rich.  The phrases you are looking for are "opportunity" and "opens doors," and both are absolutely true.  But it does translate to wealth too.  College graduates make from 500k to 1 million dollars more than high school graduates over their careers.  You can extend college loan repayment for 25 years if you want to.

22 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Start a thread, let's talk about it.

You start one.  You're the one who supports student loan reparations.  I'm a future looking person.  I'm asking why past reparations aren't discussed for healthcare.  I know you aren't big on original thought, but I think its telling that the groups who define your policy positions fail to even have this cross their minds.  Reparations are really only discussed for two things.  Student loans and slavery.  And while slavery does have some justification for reparations, student loans don't.

22 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Ah yes... the campaign for the elite by the elite. You've nailed it.

Of course its elitist.  Money isn't the only barrier to college entry.  Grades and entrance exams also exist.

22 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

That's an interesting question. Is there a way to easily make that determination? Are you offering that because you see it as a problem to be addressed or just throwing out red herrings?

Of course its a problem to be addressed.  While college graduates are wanting to pay themselves for college they already attended, they need to address the people who were hurt the most by the way college is financed.  It has never been the people that take the loans.  Only an elitist would believe that college graduates are those hurt the most by student loans.

Is it easy to determine?  Well, we could look at college acceptance versus entries, and pay every single person who was accepted to college but didn't go a stipend to make up for lost income.  But then we also wouldn't be addressing the people who didn't even apply because they knew financing would be a problem.  We need to pay them back too.

 

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henrygandorf

henrygandorf 29223

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1 minute ago, bad_teammate said:

Any of it. You tell me.

You were (perhaps disingenuously) expressing confusion as to how we could possibly determine whether or not education is a service we should expect to receive. I'm trying to figure out what you actually think and believe about your own supposed concern.

i always have concerns when degrees of something are expressed by anyone (in this case you) as absolutes.  you said "services they should have received" and then you continued.  if i don't think that sentence is accurate, i can't build a discussion from it, or use it as a foundation at all.

i understand that looking to the past is not the solution, and i agree.  but unfortunately we live in a world where the past dictates much of how we live our lives (see the bill of rights, amendment 2).  so i think before you go assuming your statement of absolutes is correct, it's important to know that your foundation is solid.  i don't think it is.  so what you call "confusion", i call a legit question of how you determine services that "should or shouldn't" have been received.

i believe k-12 is a right of any american citizen.  i believe access to healthcare is also an essential human right.  i do not believe higher education is "a right" that one should expect for free.  should we figure out ways to make it more affordable?  of course.  should there be more programs where you can exchange some sort of service (teaching, etc) for school?  definitely.  but no, i don't see it as an essential human right.  although i have no problem with people that do.  i don't declare my opinion as fact, and those who don't support it as wrong.

and i'm still waiting for any reaction from the "how dare you sir" link i sent you to yesterday.  it happened organically on a different board.  you have to appreciate that.  

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Onboard 2.0

Onboard 2.0 9083

Posted
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, David Dennison said:

They just want capitalistas to stop making their lives miserable.

Nope they're just miserable fucks to begin with. Definition of a communist:  The never ending feeling that someone, somewhere is happy, and making money. 

Edited by Onboard 2.0
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FondrenRoad

FondrenRoad 4378

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31 minutes ago, Blotto said:

 

 

Still waiting for a response on this one, bad_teammate 

 

Yep, and there is Student 4.  Worked to put himself through college so he didn't have to take loans.  Maybe his grades suffered for it too.  He also suffered greater injury than college graduates who have student loans.

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henrygandorf

henrygandorf 29223

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2 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

Yep, and there is Student 4.  Worked to put himself through college so he didn't have to take loans.  Maybe his grades suffered for it too.  He also suffered greater injury than college graduates who have student loans.

the good news for student 4 is that when he worked, the minimum wage was only $7.75, but now it's $12.00, so he will be getting his minimum wage reparations in the mail soon.

direct deposit actually.

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NotActuallyALonghorn

NotActuallyALonghorn 4998

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25 minutes ago, American Swindle said:

And my answer's a big Hell No.  Higher education and the loans associated with them are a scam that the Colleges have capitalized from due to cronyism. How the hell else is an 18 yo with no credit at all given a loan for 50k+$ at 4% interest rates?  Government backs loan, you can't discharge it in bankruptcy court, and institutions bear ZERO RISK, so they jack the tuition up and make all that money.

Man, it's as if the government creates these problems, but now you want them to bail out those that were suckered by the scam.  The issue is with the scammers not the scammed.

Which is why we need to make loans dischargeable. And pay off a portion of the existing loans out of the Boomers' social security checks.

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TwiceHorn

TwiceHorn 31993

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1 hour ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

I'd agree,  it is vote pandering  by many, but the costs for secondary schools have become absurd.  

No, you don't make it free, but you do reward kids who excel, that's a good carrot to dangle.  State schools should not be expensive for in state kids.  Student loans should be low interest.

Actually, I think the idea started as pure pandering, but when considered by people like Warren, in conjunction with some other fixes to higher education, made about as much sense as anything.  Doing it without some structural changes to the system would be fruitless, except for the following election.

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FondrenRoad

FondrenRoad 4378

Posted
Posted

 

1 minute ago, David Dennison said:

What kind of economies do Guatemala, Honduras, and Mexico have?

 

Just now, Onboard 2.0 said:

The kind we'd have if you had it your way ?

Guatemala and Honduras have almost zero regulation or oversight.  That results in pure capitalism.  Mexico is a different animal and not comparable to the other two really.

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David Dennison

David Dennison 19441

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Just now, FondrenRoad said:

Guatemala and Honduras have almost zero regulation or oversight.  That results in pure capitalism.  Mexico is a different animal and not comparable to the other two really.

Mexico is different, but it is a member of a free trade agreement with the other two North American capitalist nations, so I threw her in there. 

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Onboard 2.0

Onboard 2.0 9083

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1 minute ago, TwiceHorn said:

Actually, I think the idea started as pure pandering, but when considered by people like Warren, in conjunction with some other fixes to higher education, made about as much sense as anything.  Doing it without some structural changes to the system would be fruitless, except for the following election.

I think we do need to do something, but just a general forgiveness ain't the route we should be taking.

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Incredulity

Incredulity 11861

Posted
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Just now, David Dennison said:

See, you don't even know that Mexico is a huge capitalist economy with some government ownership thrown in the mix. It's more capitalism than socialism for sure.

and how many are fleeing Mexico?

please chart trend over time, overlayed with GDP growth.  I will hang up and listen.

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FondrenRoad

FondrenRoad 4378

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1 minute ago, TwiceHorn said:

Actually, I think the idea started as pure pandering, but when considered by people like Warren, in conjunction with some other fixes to higher education, made about as much sense as anything.  Doing it without some structural changes to the system would be fruitless, except for the following election.

That's kind of how good progressive policies always get buried.  Now everyone is mostly talking about student loan forgiveness which isn't really going to get past being a talking point, and this topic is going to be completely tied to and completely bury the real reform we need for skyrocketing tuition.

We need to go back to talking about "free college" and forget about paying for every past person's college since the first college opened its doors in this country.  Poor people with past student loan debt can and should be a quiet line item in future welfare discussion.  Future college discussion should be about people that are going to go to college in the future.

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Blotto

Blotto 23975

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32 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

I apologize for the poor service, sir, I have a lot of tables full of furious centrists demanding attention and I hope you satisfy your needs soon.

As for your paragraph, I don't know what you mean by "punish". Could you explain what the "punishment" is?

If you dont like the word punish, fine let me rephrase....

Why does it matter if you paid for college out of pocket or took out loans. In both scenarios, education wasn't properly subsidized. If we are talking fairness, why should a person be ineligible for reparations because they and their family had the foresight to ensure they could pay for an education. Why does the opportunity cost of the exaggerated expense of education not apply to people that paid out of pocket? We want to be fair after all.

 

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bad_teammate

bad_teammate 13481

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7 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

Opportunity costs exists for millions of decisions.  You chose this one, and this one alone, because it affects your peer group. 

It impacts my peer group? Are you sure about that?

Also, "and this one alone"? What does that mean?

Quote

Why are student loans your primary, if not only, focus. 

I started a thread about it because it's in the news right now because major presidential candidates are releasing attention-grabbing plans. Name any kind of progressive policy you believe in and then ask yourself, seriously and without the weird combative bitterness that animates you, whether or not I would support it.

You're very mad about absolutely nothing and it's funny.

Quote

Now everyone is mostly talking about student loan forgiveness which isn't really going to get past being a talking point, and this topic is going to be completely tied to and completely bury the real reform we need for skyrocketing tuition.

We need to go back to talking about "free college" and forget about paying for every past person's college since the first college opened its doors in this country.

It is all literally in the exact same bill.

7 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

i believe k-12 is a right of any american citizen.  ...  i do not believe higher education is "a right" that one should expect for free.

Why that delineation (between K-12 and higher ed (including trade/vocational))? Is that based on the practical needs of the citizens in 2019 or simply in "well, that's how it's always been"?

Quote

should we figure out ways to make it more affordable?  of course.  should there be more programs where you can exchange some sort of service (teaching, etc) for school?  definitely.

Why?

Quote

and i'm still waiting for any reaction from the "how dare you sir" link i sent you to yesterday.  it happened organically on a different board.  you have to appreciate that.  

I don't know what you're talking about.

1 minute ago, Blotto said:

Why does it matter if you paid for college out of pocket or took out loans. In both scenarios, education wasn't properly subsidized. If we are talking fairness, why should a person be ineligible for reparations because they and their family had the foresight to ensure they could pay for an education. Why does the opportunity cost of the exaggerated expense of education not apply to people that paid out of pocket? We want to be fair after all.  

That is very much worth exploring, but it's a separate question. It's like someone arguing that African-Americans shouldn't get slavery reparations if Native Americans also don't. We should discuss the best way to make up for all these wrongs and then work together to enact that best solution.

As someone who regularly starts Policy threads, I enjoy these conversations and invite them. I do think it's dishonest, though, to pull the "NO X WITHOUT Y" card as a way of going around a discussion about X.

But to go ahead and answer it anyway...

A loan implies an inability to do something otherwise. It's a different level of wrong, basically.

(I do not oppose other reparation schemes. I would love to read/hear proposals and discuss them.)

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Asithappens

Asithappens 978

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52 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

I think Will Hunting summed it up best:

"You dropped a hundred and fifty grand on a fucking education you coulda' got for a dollar fifty in late charges at the public library."

 

I love Will, but he's kind of a dumb shit at times.

First, he has no idea what an "education" is. Second, I'll let you figure the rest out.

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Mojo Hand

Mojo Hand 4580

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52 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Ah, so you're arguing that money I spent in the past has no relevance to the present or future?

I would disagree. I think $50k spent on repaying loans could've been invested in real estate, or a business (either your own or someone else's), or myriad other things that would have, if done, made someone's life better. Opportunity costs are real things and I don't think they are a myth.

So would you argue that we should pay back not only the $50K, but interest as well?  Or some kind of multiplier based on lost opportunity cost? 

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'stache

'stache 22117

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2 hours ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

You're trying to equate primary education costs to secondary education costs?

 

2 hours ago, NoRagrets said:

 

Sick burn except...

you're paying for that “free” education through exorbitant property values and taxes in the “good” public districts. The barriers to entry for quality public education are quite expensive.

I was responding to the blanket statement "When you make it free, you diminish the value " and "making it free makes it worthless." I found that bizarre since K-12 is free, notwithstanding the tax funding mechanism. Wouldn't free college be paid similarly by taxes?

When public K-12 was determined to be beneficial we were largely an agricultural/industrial economy. We are now primarily a knowledge based economy where college is necessary to open a lot of doors to prosperity (and save me the "elitist" stuff, of course there are many paths to prosperity that don't require a college degree, but they are much more limited today than they were 100 or even 30 years ago). I would extend free public education to a bachelors degree at least for the same reasons we have for generations supported free public K-12.

Edited by 'stache
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American Swindle

American Swindle 102

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29 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

What kind of economies do Guatemala, Honduras, and Mexico have?

Yes, but what factors can contribute to distortions of free market capitlism?  Corruption in government? Government spending?  Lack of free trade?  You think you got me, because these countries have folks that have fled to to the US and they happen to not have socialist governmental systems?  BWUHAHAHAHHAHHHAA.  Narco-terrorism has nothing to do with I'm sure.

 

Some info below to help aid the discussion.  Can't put my finger on it, but something tells me you self-owned yourself.  

 

https://www.heritage.org/index/country/honduras

 

https://www.heritage.org/index/country/mexico

 

https://www.heritage.org/index/country/guatemala

 

 

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FondrenRoad

FondrenRoad 4378

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8 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

 

It is all literally in the exact same bill.

 

Yep, a bill that is going to fail because it has tied past student loan forgiveness to future tuition reform.  So what we will get is neither.  Congrats, I guess.

And now I'm sorry I gave you the idea about past medical reparations.  Don't fuck up Medicare for all with it please.  We'd still have slavery if we had tied necessary reparations to its abolition.  Even 40 acres and a mule was a promise that never came to fruition.

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bad_teammate

bad_teammate 13481

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5 minutes ago, Mojo Hand said:

So would you argue that we should pay back not only the $50K, but interest as well?  Or some kind of multiplier based on lost opportunity cost? 

Not to sound like too much of a politician, but I'm open to the conversation. I haven't seen any analysis of the stimulus benefit of going that far into it, but if the stimulus outweighs the cost, then obviously it's a worthwhile investment.

I think the moral case is stronger for those currently in debt. Next strongest for those who paid debt off. Less strong is the theoretical opportunity costs (which are WAY harder to calculate than existing debt and debt already paid).

Just now, FondrenRoad said:

Yep, a bill that is going to fail because it has tied past student loan forgiveness to future tuition reform.

You're just a treasure lol

What is a piece of progressive policy that you believe in that you think I would oppose?

If you can't think of one, can you articulate the extremely high level of hostility you feel towards me?

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TwiceHorn

TwiceHorn 31993

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28 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

That's kind of how good progressive policies always get buried.  Now everyone is mostly talking about student loan forgiveness which isn't really going to get past being a talking point, and this topic is going to be completely tied to and completely bury the real reform we need for skyrocketing tuition.

We need to go back to talking about "free college" and forget about paying for every past person's college since the first college opened its doors in this country.  Poor people with past student loan debt can and should be a quiet line item in future welfare discussion.  Future college discussion should be about people that are going to go to college in the future.

That whole sort of compromise thing was kind of nice, wasn't it?

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Nivek

Nivek 17331

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Posted

Maybe find a time when college was semi affordable (2005?) then scale the forgiveness from that point onward.

So the dipshit today that graduates with a bs in chemistry and 80k in debt is roughly equal to the dipshit that graduated with bs in chemistry 30k in debt 15 years ago. So the dipshit today owes $50k.

For those that didnt finish school, no forgiveness unless they do finish.

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Onboard 2.0

Onboard 2.0 9083

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19 minutes ago, 'stache said:

 

I was responding to the blanket statement "When you make it free, you diminish the value " and "making it free makes it worthless." I found that bizarre since K-12 is free, notwithstanding the tax funding mechanism. Wouldn't free college be paid similarly by taxes?

When public K-12 was determined to be beneficial we were largely an agricultural/industrial economy. We are now primarily a knowledge based economy where college is necessary to open a lot of doors to prosperity (and save me the "elitist" stuff, of course there are many paths to prosperity that don't require a college degree, but they are much more limited today than they were 100 or even 30 years ago). I would extend free public education to a bachelors degree at least for the same reasons we have for generations supported free public K-12.

Gotcha.

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David Dennison

David Dennison 19441

Posted
Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, American Swindle said:

Yes, but what factors can contribute to distortions of free market capitlism?  Corruption in government? Government spending?  Lack of free trade?  You think you got me, because these countries have folks that have fled to to the US and they happen to not have socialist governmental systems?  BWUHAHAHAHHAHHHAA.  Narco-terrorism has nothing to do with I'm sure.

What about a government that has to bail you out every decade or so? Or entire sectors of an economy dependent on subsidies and government contracts? How free is that market?

Murica.

Edited by David Dennison
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American Swindle

American Swindle 102

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8 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

What about a government that has to bail you out every decade or so? Or entire sectors of an economy dependent on subsidies and government contracts? How free is that market?

Murica.

Am I even arguing that we currently have a free market in the US?  Nope.  Our house of cards is being held together by OPEC and the Federal Reserve. So we agree on something, that the US economic system is not free-market capitalism.  Not so bad... 

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