Student Loan Reparations (Policy Talk)

[Nice Guy Eddie 13414]

What I worry about this policy is that it may become an actual serious proposal if it propels one of the candidates to the top.  Most of them need an issue or their candidacy will die soon.  It could turn into the Build the Wall of 2020.  If it helps someone get elected, they will have no choice but to pay off loans which is punishing everyone for the behavior of a smaller group.

FYI, I have a student loan right now so I would be cool if someone took the balance to zero.  Its a horrible idea, but I would benefit from it.

[Mojo Hand 4580]

33 minutes ago, immamac said:

@bad_teammate I'm honestly at the point where I think you are trolling now - there is no way with logical arguments from all sides coming at you that you are so steadfast in a non-logical position and repeating the same circular arguments over and over. Agree to disagree and move on or actually give people a way to compromise with your viewpoint. 

If you think kids are too stupid and helpless and need to get bailed out - that's totally a fine position to have, however it's not falling in line with ANYONE ELSES PREMISE of what is going on - so stop trying to pound the "kids are idiots" drum in our faces and move on.

The whole thread is obviously disingenuous.   There's no way B_T actually thinks this policy is remotely on the table.  He's just trying to push the conversation to the left with extreme arguments in order to make the actual policies that are on the table (some degree of forgiveness for currently outstanding debt) seem even more reasonable and workable. 

[bad_teammate 13132]

Just now, Mojo Hand said:

There's no way B_T actually thinks this policy is remotely on the table.

It is a bill being actively championed by the current policy/thought leader of the Democratic Party (Sanders) and the most visible and transformative youthful energy of the party (Jayapal, Omar, AOC). Yes, it's on the table.

It's not a Medium post from Warren's policy team or Beto's midlife-crisis sojourn. It's not a vague idea. It's an actual bill that you can read.

If you guys want to push a candidate you like to create competing legislation, that's great, but just because you're disingenuous and don't actually believe in anything doesn't mean that's true of others.

 

[FondrenRoad 4378]

19 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

"For the 40% who have loans, the school itself should have to repay their loan since they shouldn't have allowed those students in in the first place."

How would the schools make this admissions determination? What would be their criteria?

They use the same statistical approach they use now.  But instead of accepting and even taking pride in a high fail out rate while taking students' money, they only get to keep the money if the student graduates.  This means that some borderline students will be rejected and some will be accepted but encouraged to succeed once in school.  And many of these borderline students would be better served by cutting their teeth in community college in the first place.

And again, Hannity, it doesn't matter if you bold the rest of the quote if you still separate your Hannity section with italics.  You need to treat that entire sentence as its presented.

25 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Since you don't know what you're talking about with all of this personal stuff, perhaps it might be a good idea to stick to the topic instead of looking for high-fives from people who hate your beliefs and political worldview like the Dave Rubin to their Dennis Prager.

I'd be happy to share my life story with you, but I don't warm to the Ben Shaprio "DEBATE ME!" attitude about my personal life.

We often get lost in the weeds here, but the primary issue we have on most topics is that you are intent on saddling the future with the mistakes of the past.  Sometimes you have to let the past go so that we can have a great future.

I don't really care about your personal life, but it is often apparent that you don't have life experiences in the areas we discuss.

28 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

"Are these students "18-year-olds [that] are not broadly capable of making profoundly wise predictive decisions" or are they the hard-working hard-studying students you describe in this post?"

They are hard-working, well-intentioned, and unable to accurately predict the future. They bet on themselves and hope it works out. Sometimes it doesn't. You think we shouldn't have even given them the chance. (Well, maybe you don't, but you said it and you're not the type of person to admit being wrong so you're going to dance and wriggle as hard as you can.)

You're Hannity-ing a quote again.  The answer to this is in the part you selectively deleted once again.  They don't have to predict the future.  5 year job predictions are nearly always accurate.  These competent 18 year olds are capable of using google.

It isn't about wrong or right.  In a single sentence, I said something assholish and I offered a solution.  You, like the Hannity you are, have chosen to focus on that assholish phrase as if it were the only thing posted.

[David Dennison 18661]

1 minute ago, bad_teammate said:

It is a bill being actively championed by the current policy/thought leader of the Democratic Party (Sanders) and the most visible and transformative youthful energy of the party (Jayapal, Omar, AOC). Yes, it's on the table.

It's not a Medium post from Warren's policy team or Beto's midlife-crisis sojourn. It's not a vague idea. It's an actual bill that you can read.

If you guys want to push a candidate you like to create competing legislation, that's great, but just because you're disingenuous and don't actually believe in anything doesn't mean that's true of others.

I think they are talking about the debt forgiveness. Is there a bill for that?

[bad_teammate 13132]

Just now, FondrenRoad said:

They use the same statistical approach they use now.

What a pathetic attempt to dodge the question, my friend. Answer it. You say that universities should not accept at-risk students. What are the criteria that these universities should use to exclude these students? Please say what they are.

If you can't bring yourself to say it out loud, then perhaps you should stop making the argument.

Quote

They don't have to predict the future.  5 year job predictions are nearly always accurate.  These competent 18 year olds are capable of using google.

That's not the only prediction they have to nail.

[bad_teammate 13132]

Just now, David Dennison said:

I think they are talking about the debt forgiveness. Is there a bill for that?

It's all the same bill.

Debt forgiveness and tuition-free college all done together (which it would need to be).

[FondrenRoad 4378]

1 minute ago, David Dennison said:

I think they are talking about the debt forgiveness. Is there a bill for that?

Its Title IV in the same bill.  And its the reason the whole bill will be scrapped.  We can't have tuition reform for the future because people are intent on saddling the future with the past.  I think this is Gen X and Millennials having their Boomer moment.  "Gotta get mine.  Can't just do something for whatever the post-millennial generations are called."

[Cheeseweasel 26437]

15 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

What a terribly inept metaphor

Thanks. Obviously it worked if it pissed you off.

[bad_teammate 13132]

Just now, Cheeseweasel said:

Thanks. Obviously it worked if it pissed you off.

Trumpmode: Engaged!

[David Dennison 18661]

Just now, bad_teammate said:

It's all the same bill.

Debt forgiveness and tuition-free college all done together (which it would need to be).

Thanks. Didn't scroll down far enough.

It's a shame this will never see the light of day. Has it ever been assigned a number?

[Cheeseweasel 26437]

7 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

They use the same statistical approach they use now.  But instead of accepting and even taking pride in a high fail out rate while taking students' money, they only get to keep the money if the student graduates.  This means that some borderline students will be rejected and some will be accepted but encouraged to succeed once in school.  And many of these borderline students would be better served by cutting their teeth in community college in the first place.

This is the kind of thing I could get behind in order to see "bailout" legislation pass. They need skin in the game and admit they are part of the problem.

[bad_teammate 13132]

Just now, David Dennison said:

Thanks. Didn't scroll down far enough.

It's a shame this will never see the light of day. Has it ever been assigned a number?

Y'all are going to throw your backs out moving these goalposts.

[bad_teammate 13132]

"These wild-eyed lunatics aren't serious."

- "Here are the most visible and influential leaders advocating it."

"Pffft like they have a plan."

- "Here's the full, written legislation."

"Yeah, well, is it even filed yet??"

[David Dennison 18661]

1 minute ago, bad_teammate said:

Y'all are going to throw your backs out moving these goalposts.

I'm not moving a goal post. I'd love to see the Senate or House take up this bill. I'm just curious if it's ever been assigned a number. Has it ever actually been filed? Has it been taken up by a committee? 

[Cheeseweasel 26437]

4 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Trumpmode: Engaged!

Well thought out response. Nice job. +rep.

[bad_teammate 13132]

Just now, David Dennison said:

I'm not moving a goal post. I'd love to see the Senate or House take up this bill. I'm just curious if it's ever been assigned a number. Has it ever actually been filed? Has it been taken up by a committee? 

They announced it like 2 days ago.

lol

[David Dennison 18661]

Just now, bad_teammate said:

They announced it like 2 days ago.

lol

Or 2015.

https://thehill.com/policy/finance/242362-sanders-to-unveil-bill-promising-free-tuition-at-public-universities

[FondrenRoad 4378]

3 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

What a pathetic attempt to dodge the question, my friend. Answer it. You say that universities should not accept at-risk students. What are the criteria that these universities should use to exclude these students? Please say what they are.

They use the same formulas they use now for dropout statistics based on grades, test scores, and extracurricular activities.  But instead of letting in the high dropout risks so they can collect their money for two years and build a new rec center, they reject the high risk student.

They don't have to factor in any of the things you think cause a student to fail.  You focus far too much on statistical outliers.  All these things are predictable.  Its the reason aptitude tests exist in the first place.

Community college is truly designed specifically for these students.  If they do well, then they are no longer high risk and can move on to a 4 year college.  If they don't, then they didn't lose much money in giving it a try.  I'm not sure why you're so intent on having schools like UT take students who are at high risk of dropout.  Its a disservice to both the student and the university.  But hey, the rec center has a new climbing wall and wave pool.

[Mojo Hand 4580]

18 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

It is a bill being actively championed by the current policy/thought leader of the Democratic Party (Sanders) and the most visible and transformative youthful energy of the party (Jayapal, Omar, AOC). Yes, it's on the table.

It's not a Medium post from Warren's policy team or Beto's midlife-crisis sojourn. It's not a vague idea. It's an actual bill that you can read.

If you guys want to push a candidate you like to create competing legislation, that's great, but just because you're disingenuous and don't actually believe in anything doesn't mean that's true of others.

 

Before I read this bill, let's be clear.  You are saying that the policy that this thread is about — giving "reparations" to people who paid off their student loans in the past, rather than merely those with outstanding loan debt — is being proposed by all of those people and is enshrined in that bill? 

[immamac 42519]

Alright - bad_teammate is trolling good to know.

[bad_teammate 13132]

Just now, FondrenRoad said:

They use the same formulas they use now for dropout statistics based on grades, test scores, and extracurricular activities.

Are those the three criteria universities use to figure out who is going to drop out? That's what you're going with?

That's strange, because the SSI people at UT who got some money from me recently didn't list those as the only 3 concerns for incoming freshman. In fact, those weren't even the top ones! WEIRD!

Are you sure that economic and racial/ethnic/national factors aren't also used? HMMM

7 minutes ago, Mojo Hand said:

Before I read this bill, let's be clear.  You are saying that the policy that this thread is about — giving "reparations" to people who paid off their student loans in the past, rather than merely those with outstanding loan debt — is being proposed by all of those people and is enshrined in that bill? 

No. The conversation has moved on from the initial premise of the thread. I apologize for any confusion.

6 minutes ago, immamac said:

Alright - bad_teammate is trolling good to know.

Can't come up with something to say? Accuse the only person posting meaningful content of trolling!

[FondrenRoad 4378]

9 minutes ago, Mojo Hand said:

Before I read this bill, let's be clear.  You are saying that the policy that this thread is about — giving "reparations" to people who paid off their student loans in the past, rather than merely those with outstanding loan debt — is being proposed by all of those people and is enshrined in that bill? 

No reparations for people who paid.  They're suckers.

"(1) PRIOR REPAYMENT.—Nothing in this section shall be construed to authorize any refunding of any eligible Federal student loan repayment made before the date of enactment of this title."

[FondrenRoad 4378]

17 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Are those the three criteria universities use to figure out who is going to drop out? That's what you're going with?

That's strange, because the SSI people at UT who got some money from me recently didn't list those as the only 3 concerns for incoming freshman. In fact, those weren't even the top ones! WEIRD!

Are you sure that economic and racial/ethnic/national factors aren't also used? HMMM

Interesting.  So you are saying that you believe a white student with a 4.0 high school GPA and a 1500 on the SAT is statistically likely to perform better than a black student with a 4.0 high school GPA and a 1500 on the SAT?  That race is a dropout factor between otherwise equal performers?   I don't think you are that racist.

Or you know, they can just use those same 3 criteria while understanding that poor people, including statistically more likely to be poor ethnic minorities, are statistically more likely to perform poorly in high school and on aptitude tests.

So while you want to let borderline students in and fail them out, I prefer an approach that will help them and future generations succeed.  They don't need to be at a university that intentionally fails out 40% of its students so they can fill their own coffers.  They need to be at a place where they can learn to learn.  And we really need to be throwing more money and ideas at the poorly performing K-12 schools that left them ill prepared for college in the first place.

Edited June 26, 2019 by FondrenRoad

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

On 6/25/2019 at 10:14 AM, Asithappens said:

Here's the obvious answer: they have to pay massive loans back because they took out massive loans.

So why did they have to take out massive loans?

1. Maybe they didn't. Maybe they made sub-optimal choices. Go to a juco then transfer in. That saves money.

2. Maybe they picked a bad major, i.e., one with limited earning potential. 

3. Maybe they went to an expensive state school, especially if you went to an out-of-state public university. 

4. Maybe they went to med school at good old State U. 

5. Maybe they went full retard and went to law school at State U.

6. Life is just unfair.

If your parent lets you take out "massive" loans while still going to a state school then they have failed (somewhat) as a parent. Especially if you majored in something like liberal arts.

 

On 6/25/2019 at 11:50 AM, Cheeseweasel said:

I think Will Hunting summed it up best:

"You dropped a hundred and fifty grand on a fucking education you coulda' got for a dollar fifty in late charges at the public library."

 

These might be good points if you could get a job better than fry cook with a HS diploma. Eliminate the "err'body needs a BA for err'thing" requirement for liberal arts-y jobs and then we'll talk.

[Cheeseweasel 26437]

1 minute ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

 

These might be good points if you could get a job better than fry cook with a HS diploma. Eliminate the "err'body needs a BA for err'thing" requirement for liberal arts-y jobs and then we'll talk.

Supply / Demand. Why would I hire someone without a BA when there are so many out there looking for work?

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

4 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

Supply / Demand. Why would I hire someone without a BA when there are so many out there looking for work?

Of course you wouldn't, but the point is all those BA-holders are in debt up to their ass and beyond and they won't be able to pay it off as our society now values STEM graduates more highly. Or you could go into law, but then you are even more in to debt up to your ass and beyond. 

Edited June 26, 2019 by MaybeACoordinator

[Cheeseweasel 26437]

30 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Can't come up with something to say? Accuse the only person posting meaningful content of trolling!

You sure do have an inflated sense of self...

[Cheeseweasel 26437]

1 minute ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

Of course you wouldn't, but the point is all those BA-holders are in debt up to their ass and beyond and they won't be able to pay it off as our society now values STEM graduates more highly. Only you go into law, and then you are even more in to debt up to your ass and beyond. 

But the root cause of why they are "in debt up to their ass" is not hiring practices, it's poor ROI for their investment. And FWIW, I don't blame them, I blame the shitty generation who convinced them to borrow 100k for a shitty education.

[FondrenRoad 4378]

1 minute ago, Cheeseweasel said:

But the root cause of why they are "in debt up to their ass" is not hiring practices, it's poor ROI for their investment. And FWIW, I don't blame them, I blame the shitty generation who convinced them to borrow 100k for a shitty education.

100k keeps getting trotted out there, but that includes grad or professional schools. No undergrad only degree holder owes that much. 100k also gets pretty good ROI for doctors. Not so much for lawyers depending on the school. 

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

3 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

But the root cause of why they are "in debt up to their ass" is not hiring practices, it's poor ROI for their investment. And FWIW, I don't blame them, I blame the shitty generation who convinced them to borrow 100k for a shitty education.

But they have to do that unless they want to drive a forklift. We agree, I think, but are arguing in circles.

[Cheeseweasel 26437]

1 minute ago, FondrenRoad said:

100k keeps getting trotted out there, but that includes grad or professional schools. No undergrad only degree holder owes that much. 100k also gets pretty good ROI for doctors. Not so much for lawyers depending on the school. 

Yeah, it's hyperbole. And frankly, anyone can go to Community College for 2 years, State for 2 years and get in under 30k. 

[Revolution512 1480]

27 minutes ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

Of course you wouldn't, but the point is all those BA-holders are in debt up to their ass and beyond and they won't be able to pay it off as our society now values STEM graduates more highly. Or you could go into law, but then you are even more in to debt up to your ass and beyond. 

You act as if their only choice was massive amounts of debt and that there’s no way out. They made a choice. They also continue making poor financial decisions after school. I guess let’s forgive that car loan and house they couldn’t afford as well? The 10k they spent on a diamond or 20k they spent on their wedding? 

There are those that need help but handouts are rarely effective. Fix what’s broken.

[Incredulity 11555]

28 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

Yeah, it's hyperbole. And frankly, anyone can go to Community College for 2 years, State for 2 years and get in under 30k. 

Yeah, but it's my right to spend 8 years chasing a undergraduate degree.  Why can't you understand that?  bigot.

[Fozzz 152]

This is an excellent primer on the history of the student debt crisis.  A must read.

Relying on the market to provide the means for supplying quasi-universal goods can lead to some not so good consequences but at least those who matter most profit handsomely.  

Quote

The voucher system, combined with a lack of government oversight, created perverse incentives: Colleges could raise money quickly by admitting academically suspect students while suffering little or no consequences if their students dropped out and defaulted on loans.

The market was suddenly flooded with cheap money, which led to a surge in the ranks of college-going students. Colleges responded to higher demand by raising prices, leading Congress to increase loan limits and grants. This cycle continued throughout the 1980s and 1990s, as Sallie Mae and private banks that fronted students the money for the federal student loan program made big profits—and schools collected more money.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-long-road-to-the-student-debt-crisis-11559923730?mod=searchresults&page=1&pos=3

Quote

President Barack Obama’s administration tried to address many of higher education’s problems through regulation. For example, it put in place rules designed to force for-profit trade schools to shut down if too many of their students defaulted on loans. But Mr. Obama doubled down on the basic idea that college is a safe investment for students and the country. 

ol' Barack, always trying to tame the beast that cannot be tamed.

[GSU&UT 1798]

9 minutes ago, longhornmatt said:

And the reason we need to scrap it is not the rampant homeless population in urban centers, the collapse of rural economies, horrifying living conditions at state homes for those who can’t care for themselves, the lack of services for the disabled and mentally ill and their families

Pretty sure these are reasons often cited why unfettered capitalism is harmful, but you do you. FYI Medicaid patients pay the lowest amount for drug prices despite the difficulties they may have in finding private practices that accept this as a form of insurance, but you do you hoss and let those markets fix our healthcare system.

[American Swindle 102]

The road to perdition was paved with good intentions.  

All I'm hearing is we need to throw in a dash more government to fix the problems the government made in the first place amirite?

 

 

 

Edited June 26, 2019 by American Swindle
with*

[GSU&UT 1798]

I didn't say they were you dipshit, of course private practices would rather deal with insurance companies or just straight up not take insurance (my former psych doc started to do this).

I said they at least have the lowest drug prices because the government mandates that they do. The kind of basic thing that is going to happen sooner or later despite how much you whine about difficult it is because we're suddenly a nation of pussies who can't accomplish hard tasks.

[bad_teammate 13132]

1 hour ago, FondrenRoad said:

Interesting.  So you are saying that you believe a white student with a 4.0 high school GPA and a 1500 on the SAT is statistically likely to perform better than a black student with a 4.0 high school GPA and a 1500 on the SAT?  That race is a dropout factor between otherwise equal performers?

What does "perform better" mean?

I said that universities take economic and racial/ethnic/national factors into account when figuring out which incoming students are most likely to drop out. You are desperately trying to ignore that because you made a horrible argument and are incapable of self-critique.

And it's all very obvious.

Quote

Or you know, they can just use those same 3 criteria while understanding that poor people, including statistically more likely to be poor ethnic minorities, are statistically more likely to perform poorly in high school and on aptitude tests.

Ah, so they do consider those factors? Or they don't?

Hmmmmmmm

Quote

So while you want to let borderline students in and fail them out...

I do?

I want them to let at-risk students in who show the potential and then for our social services to alleviate the factors that keep those at-risk kids from graduating (family disaster/crisis, personal financial struggles, mental/physical health problems).

[David Dennison 18661]

4 minutes ago, American Swindle said:

The road to perdition was paved with good intentions.  

All I'm hearing is we need to throw in a dash more government to fix the problems the government made in the first place amirite?

The lesson is: never try.

[Incredulity 11555]

2 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

The lesson is: never try.

You have that tattoo'd on your lower back, don't you.

[bad_teammate 13132]

3 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

The lesson is: the poor should never try.

fixed for the board conservatives

[David Dennison 18661]

Just now, Incredulity said:

You have that tattoo'd on your lower back, don't you.

You don't know what I'm talking about, do you?

[Incredulity 11555]

Just now, David Dennison said:

You don't know what I'm talking about, do you?

your ethos.

never try.

It's just better if the government gives it to you.

[David Dennison 18661]

Just now, Incredulity said:

your ethos.

never try.

It's just better if the government gives it to you.

Right over your head.

[Incredulity 11555]

4 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Right over your head.

Dr. Buddy Rydell : Jibber jabber jibber jabbering, mumbo jumbo, denial, key-key-key-key-key-key!

[GSU&UT 1798]

11 minutes ago, longhornmatt said:

They have mandated lowest drug prices, but we also can’t/won’t properly fund Medicaid, and it’s effectively rationing care.  It’s not some victory of the system.  Not paying claims or paying so little of them that doctors won’t even take the patients and the patients can’t receive necessary care more complex than the routine cheap stuff is a shitty system.  

But, yes, fixing that tugs at my heart strings a whole lot more than student loan whining.

Cool, let's get rid of all private insurers no matter how much whine and force everyone to be on the same system then, sounds good to me. But please, continue to be a prick who thinks we can't accomplish what the rest of the developed world has because it's too challenging for us.

I hope you never have to deal with fighting an insurance company that doesn't try to screw you over about some out-of-doctor network or hospital because you were too incapacitated to make a decision, or have some clinic say that your insurance would cover a procedure only to have it denied and wind up hitting your ever increasing deductible while your finances are already stretched thin.

Edited June 26, 2019 by GSU&UT

[Incredulity 11555]

Just now, GSU&UT said:

Cool, let's get rid of all private insurers no matter how much whine. But please, continue to be a prick who thinks we can't accomplish what the rest of the developed world has because it's too challenging for us.

I hope you never have to deal with fighting an insurance company that doesn't try to screw you over about some out-of-doctor network or hospital because you were too incapacitated to make a decision, or have some clinic say that your insurance would cover a procedure only to have it denied and wind up hitting your ever increasing deductible while your finances are already stretched thin.

I have, and it's complete and utter horseshit.

I still don't think the solution is having a singular entity(the government) in charge of that transaction.  You honestly think there will be less bureaucratic nonsense about denied service/coverage limits under single payer?

 

 

[bad_teammate 13132]

1 minute ago, longhornmatt said:

I’m saying progressives should focus on healthcare instead of student loan bullshit.

[Cheeseweasel 26437]

1 hour ago, Incredulity said:

Yeah, but it's my right to spend 8 years chasing a undergraduate degree.  Why can't you understand that?  bigot.

I spent 5 years chasing shots and co-eds. I feel your pain.

 

Wait, that's just a hangover.