Student Loan Reparations (Policy Talk)

[Incredulity 11555]

4 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

[Hornius Emeritus 12420]

I am going to vote for the candidate who promises me the most free stuff.

 

[bad_teammate 13132]

1 minute ago, Hornius Emeritus said:

I am going to vote for the candidate who promises me the most free stuff.

 

Great take here on Page 7. Nice

[Cheeseweasel 26437]

37 minutes ago, Hornius Emeritus said:

I am going to vote for the candidate who promises me the most free stuff.

And then builds a wall around all the free stuff.

[Fozzz 152]

48 minutes ago, Hornius Emeritus said:

I am going to vote for the candidate who promises me the most free stuff.

 

I am going to vote for the candidate who will give the most free stuff to their friends and patrons.  

[ChiTownDoc 21102]

2 hours ago, longhornmatt said:

As an aside, one concern I do have with universal govt healthcare is that - as shitty as private insurers are - at least you have recourse against them when they screw you, whether it’s going to the insurance board, or suing, or them worrying about upsetting providers, etc.  If Medicaid or Medicare screws you, then you are just screwed. 

Yep, I don't mind universal healthcare and think it can be done properly.  But this is a huge fear for providers too.  Try working with a shitty MAC contractor.  You have very little recourse to get paid even if it is their fault.  Scary shit. 

[Hornius Emeritus 12420]

2 hours ago, Fozzz said:

I am going to vote for the candidate who will give the most free stuff to their friends and patrons.  

We already knew that you're voting for Trump. You didn't need to remind us.  Although I guess it's good to see you spelling it out. 

Edited June 26, 2019 by Hornius Emeritus

[UTDD 362]

6 hours ago, FondrenRoad said:

100k keeps getting trotted out there, but that includes grad or professional schools. No undergrad only degree holder owes that much. 100k also gets pretty good ROI for doctors. Not so much for lawyers depending on the school. 

I wouldn't recommend loans for law school at lower tier schools at all.  That could be a crippling debt.  

[David Dennison 18660]

Just now, UTDD said:

I wouldn't recommend loans for law school at lower tier schools at all.  That could be a crippling debt.  

The number of law schools in this country should be halved tomorrow. Most of the bottom tier schools should be closed.

[workswithseed 2037]

8 hours ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

But they have to do that unless they want to drive a forklift. We agree, I think, but are arguing in circles.

I mean you could go trade and make more than a burger flipper for about 16k

[bad_teammate 13132]

de Blasio is doing really well

[formermav43 4599]

8 hours ago, Hornius Emeritus said:

I am going to vote for the candidate who promises me the most free stuff.

 

 

7 hours ago, Fozzz said:

I am going to vote for the candidate who will give the most free stuff to their friends and patrons.  

 

4 hours ago, Hornius Emeritus said:

We already knew that you're voting for Trump. You didn't need to remind us.  Although I guess it's good to see you spelling it out. 

This is a weird exchange.

[Fozzz 152]

Fuck off, formermav. Quit following me around like a lost puppy. 

[formermav43 4599]

1 hour ago, Fozzz said:

Fuck off, formermav. Quit following me around like a lost puppy. 

Huh??? That wasn’t a shot at you. I was talking about how he obviously misread you. And I’m not sure what the deal is with people thinking you’re a Republican lately.

Anyway, as far as I know, the only “following you around” I’ve done is two posts in the Whataburger sale thread, over a week apart, the last one last week. I’m not sure why that’s made you so hostile, or fixated on me in particular, but you should get over yourself. If you genuinely think that’s some sort of personal vendetta, you need to seek professional help.

Edited June 27, 2019 by formermav43

[formermav43 4599]

Double post

Edited June 27, 2019 by formermav43

[Fozzz 152]

Meltdown May is apparently extending into June

[formermav43 4599]

Indeed

[Asithappens 974]

18 hours ago, FondrenRoad said:

 100k keeps getting trotted out there, but that includes grad or professional schools. No undergrad only degree holder owes that much. 

Private loans can bump the undergrad debt load over that amount, so yes, some (albeit few) undergrads may owe that much.

 

 

[dcar00 14035]

why does 4 year public college tuition cost so much when it was basically free 30 years ago?

why do you have to go full time?

at a maximum I'd be for eliminating paying the interest on any public college undergrad loans for tuition/books/equipment but not for any other expenses.

grad or medical school loans no way.  pay it back. you made a dumb decision as an adult.  sorry.

Edited June 27, 2019 by dcar00
added public college

[Asithappens 974]

6 hours ago, dcar00 said:

why does 4 year public college tuition cost so much when it was basically free 30 years ago?

The states have basically stopped funding it. Well ok, not stopped, but cut back a hell of a lot.

[dcar00 14035]

28 minutes ago, Asithappens said:

The states have basically stopped funding it. Well ok, not stopped, but cut back a hell of a lot.

interesting.  I knew they funded some of it but didn't know it was close to 50% in the early 80's.

my kids never had a chance to go straight to Texas.  they didn't want to do the UTSA/UTA route to Texas which they probably could have done.  I think their kids are going to have to be smarter about how to get the undergrad degree if they can't get significant scholarships.  take the maximum amount of classes you can that get you college credit in high school, take as many transfer/community college classes as the degree will allow, take summer classes to get out in less than 4 to cut down on the room/board expenses, etc.

They are also going to have to be more sure of their major much earlier to limit the number of courses that end up being wasted.

going an extra semester and staying summers used to cost you very little in the old days.

maybe this already exists but I wonder if there could be some kind of "graduated" interest rate where the interest rate increases the longer it takes you to pay it off. you get a couple of years at really low or zero interest rates and then they start increasing.  forces people to focus on paying it back, living cheaply, managing their money better.

also, if you had to get a student loan to get through undergrad you might want to get a job for a few years before going to grad school.

[dcar00 14035]

15 hours ago, Asithappens said:

Private loans can bump the undergrad debt load over that amount, so yes, some (albeit few) undergrads may owe that much.

 

 

its about 25K a year all in for a state public college(room, board, tuition, books, living expenses).  if someone had to borrow every dime I could see it.  if you don't have the money you really shouldn't be going to a private college for undergrad.

The reason I have little patience for this is that it isn't that hard to do the fucking math and not get yourself in a position of owing a ton of money for an undergrad degree.  

[Nice Guy Eddie 13414]

3 year bump. Great analysis on cnn.com on why an one-time loan forgiveness may be a bad idea which I agree. https://www.cnn.com/2022/05/26/politics/biden-student-loan-debt-forgiveness-complications/index.html

• the loan burden is shifted to taxpayers who either didn't go to college or already paid off their college
• it doesn't impact the cost of college
• AND may actually increase future costs of college

Not stated in this article but you know that a one-time forgiveness won't stop there. It will next be turned into a frequent if not annual forgiveness. 

I'm ok with forgiveness but only in the situation where we simultaneously eliminate all guaranteed student loans and allow loans to be erased in bankruptcy. Both of these items have created the problem and will continue to do so. 

 

[Willfully Horn 7916]

As education benefits society, cap student loan rates at 1%. Seems obvious to me.

[Caponata 151]

2 hours ago, Willfully Horn said:

As education benefits society, cap student loan rates at 1%. Seems obvious to me.

You shouldn't have to carry lifelong debt for getting an education. Does any other nation do this? 

[Nice Guy Eddie 13414]

The problem isn’t the interest rate, it’s the cost. Raise the interest rate and I guarantee the costs will drop dramatically within a few years.

[Captainant 27465]

The real issue is that there's many students that get caught in a perpetual debt cycle. I know folks who've been faithfully making payments on time but have more student debt now than when they graduated. Tack on record inflation and cost of living, and the prevailing economic fix to be "let's reduce wages to fight inflation!", and baby you've got a lost economic generation stew

Edited May 31, 2022 by Captainant

[Nice Guy Eddie 13414]

Texas state govt used to cap how much public colleges could charge, and provided higher state funds for the schools. Then the texas gop decided it was better to let students take on more of the costs than taxpayers.

not to mention that colleges are just priced incorrectly based on their value. This kills students who fail to graduate. They shoulder high debt with almost no value without the diploma. It must be a punch to the stomach to pay monthly loan bills but not have the degree. 

[David Dennison 18660]

On 5/26/2022 at 9:55 AM, Nice Guy Eddie said:

3 year bump. Great analysis on cnn.com on why an one-time loan forgiveness may be a bad idea which I agree. https://www.cnn.com/2022/05/26/politics/biden-student-loan-debt-forgiveness-complications/index.html

• the loan burden is shifted to taxpayers who either didn't go to college or already paid off their college
• it doesn't impact the cost of college
• AND may actually increase future costs of college

Not stated in this article but you know that a one-time forgiveness won't stop there. It will next be turned into a frequent if not annual forgiveness. 

I'm ok with forgiveness but only in the situation where we simultaneously eliminate all guaranteed student loans and allow loans to be erased in bankruptcy. Both of these items have created the problem and will continue to do so. 

This is what needs to happen way before loan forgiveness.

[Captainant 27465]

13 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Texas state govt used to cap how much public colleges could charge, and provided higher state funds for the schools. Then the texas gop decided it was better to let students take on more of the costs than taxpayers.

not to mention that colleges are just priced incorrectly based on their value. This kills students who fail to graduate. They shoulder high debt with almost no value without the diploma. It must be a punch to the stomach to pay monthly loan bills but not have the degree. 

But hey hey hey the state and feds were able to make so much money by bundling and securitizing that student debt into bonds! That's the main reason it won't ever get discharged - there's too much vested financial interest in it.

Also just a coincidence that the cost of college has increased linearly with the rise of Student Loan Asset Backed Securities (SLABS), I suppose.. 

[BigHorn'13 3355]

45 minutes ago, Captainant said:

The real issue is that there's many students that get caught in a perpetual debt cycle. I know folks who've been faithfully making payments on time but have more student debt now than when they graduated. Tack on record inflation and cost of living, and the prevailing economic fix to be "let's reduce wages to fight inflation!", and baby you've got a lost economic generation stew

This is pretty much where I'm at. Graduated from Texas in 2013, have been making payments every year except '14, and I still owe more than what I left with. If that ain't highway robbery...

 

16 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

This is what needs to happen way before loan forgiveness.

So much this. I can remember vividly that day in business law when, just before my prof said it, I had that grinch smile growing from ear to ear. 

Didn't stress me out too much because I'd thought I'd pay them off within 10 years... What a dumbass. 

[TwiceHorn 31283]

24 minutes ago, Captainant said:

But hey hey hey the state and feds were able to make so much money by bundling and securitizing that student debt into bonds! That's the main reason it won't ever get discharged - there's too much vested financial interest in it.

Also just a coincidence that the cost of college has increased linearly with the rise of Student Loan Asset Backed Securities (SLABS), I suppose.. 

State and feds?  Private lending institutions?

I think once guaranteed student loans go into default, the gubmint buys them from the lending institution and assumes "collection duties."  I doubt that they are very good securitizing candidates at that point, but who knows.

You know the actual lenders on non-guaranteed loans are packaging that shit up.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13414]

17 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

This is what needs to happen way before loan forgiveness.

If loans could be erased in bankruptcy, which I 100% support, wouldn't that require a even higher interest rate?

It still goes back to the cost is the main culprit and the schools want to misdirect any conversation away from the costs. I was at Texas in the late 80s/early 90s. My tuition bill only exceeded $1,000 once or twice towards the end of my time. Now UT shows tuition is $5,400 if I duplicated my education.   According to inflation calculators, that should  be between $2,000 and $2,500.  Is a UT degree worth 2x now compared to what it was in 1990?

and I assume UT is still a great deal compared to many other nationally ranked universities.

[Woland 729]

It’s another transfer of wealth from the middle class. My farm/ranch friends have been furiously posting memes against loan forgiveness, but the small farmer going bankrupt is the same song and dance. We need to get those two groups voting together.

[TwiceHorn 31283]

10 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

If loans could be erased in bankruptcy, which I 100% support, wouldn't that require a even higher interest rate?

and I assume UT is still a great deal compared to many other nationally ranked universities.

It would require higher rates and make the credit analysis more rigorous, cutting down on student lending, probably a good thing.

The thing about UT is that it's retail tuition is low, yes.  But they expect you to pay it and financial aid is only need- or merit- based and not much different from how it was before all this blew up.

Schools with tuition double or triple Texas don't expect you to pay it, or really to qualify for explicitly need- or merit-based aid.  If you are accepted, and can show that you aren't swimming in cash, you pay half or less. 

No one except the very wealthy pays retail tuition at the expensive elite schools.  Almost everyone at Texas pays retail tuition and may or may not receive financial aid of any kind.

I think ultimately, the actual cost of elite privates is a tad higher than Texas, but I think the "discounts" make people feel like they're getting more for their money.

Edited May 31, 2022 by TwiceHorn

[Nice Guy Eddie 13414]

I've against loan forgiveness if that is the only action. It only kicks the can down the road, and it will require another round of loan forgiveness in 4 years. If I'm UT leadership, I'm raising my rates another 20% the day loan forgiveness occurs. Same with housing. 

But since this is a political board, I fully expect 10K to be forgiven in the upcoming months since this is a midterm year. Turn on the money printers and knock down those loan balances. Worry about 2026 in 2026.

Edited May 31, 2022 by Nice Guy Eddie

[TwiceHorn 31283]

5 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

I've against loan forgiveness if that is the only action. It only kicks the can down the road, and it will require another round of loan forgiveness in 4 years. If I'm UT leadership, I'm raising my rates another 20% the day loan forgiveness occurs. Same with housing. 

But since this is a political board, I fully expect 10K to be forgiven in the upcoming months since this is a midterm year. Turn on the money printers and knock down those loan balances. Worry about 2026 in 2026.

Yep, student lending and tuition reform are valid and important policy concerns, and loan forgiveness should be a part of that.

But this is going to be pandering to the free shit army and a half-measure, if even that.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13414]

5 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Yep, student lending and tuition reform are valid and important policy concerns, and loan forgiveness should be a part of that.

But this is going to be pandering to the free shit army and a half-measure, if even that.

Have there been any realistic reforms in Austin recently about student loan debt?

The Legislature should hold Texas universities to standards on quality issues like graduation rates and graduates securing decent employment.  It's practically criminal that so many Texas colleges have graduation rates less than 20% and I assume the dropouts frequently have debt. Of course, I recognize the conflict that colleges provide high paying jobs so the tuition money needs to flow in. 

[DaysOff 7853]

It would require higher rates and make the credit analysis more rigorous, cutting down on student lending, probably a good thing.
The thing about UT is that it's retail tuition is low, yes.  But they expect you to pay it and financial aid is only need- or merit- based and not much different from how it was before all this blew up.
Schools with tuition double or triple Texas don't expect you to pay it, or really to qualify for explicitly need- or merit-based aid.  If you are accepted, and can show that you aren't swimming in cash, you pay half or less. 
No one except the very wealthy pays retail tuition at the expensive elite schools.  Almost everyone at Texas pays retail tuition and may or may not receive financial aid of any kind.
I think ultimately, the actual cost of elite privates is a tad higher than Texas, but I think the "discounts" make people feel like they're getting more for their money.

This won't change until UT is no longer an "it" destination. They get away with it because they can get away with it. String together a couple of more 5-7 seasons and maybe demand slips. If only Lobo was here.

[Vegas64 665]

1 hour ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

If loans could be erased in bankruptcy, which I 100% support, wouldn't that require a even higher interest rate?

It still goes back to the cost is the main culprit and the schools want to misdirect any conversation away from the costs. I was at Texas in the late 80s/early 90s. My tuition bill only exceeded $1,000 once or twice towards the end of my time. Now UT shows tuition is $5,400 if I duplicated my education.   According to inflation calculators, that should  be between $2,000 and $2,500.  Is a UT degree worth 2x now compared to what it was in 1990?

and I assume UT is still a great deal compared to many other nationally ranked universities.

UT is probably 2x the prestige and academic value than it was in the 80's. Is your question then, should the perceived value and the cost be tightly coupled?

Captainant I think has nailed it, at the end of the day it's all finance tricks.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13414]

41 minutes ago, Vegas64 said:

UT is probably 2x the prestige and academic value than it was in the 80's. 

Is it though?  I think of a recent UT grad as someone that definitely had to reach a higher admission bar today in relation to the 80s but I'm unsure the academics are higher.  There is an argument that UT is easier today than ever before.

And don't quote me US News rankings. That is a function of keeping the school as exclusive and small as possible. Any school can pursue this by not growing and/or having a high rejection rate. UT is obviously far from small but it also hasn't grown since the 80s.  The other big ranking factor is helping students stay in school and getting them their diploma within 6 years. This can be manipulated as well if the administration sets this as a top priority.

Finally, I don't think there is an objective measure of academics so its more of an opinion.

[Willfully Horn 7916]

8 hours ago, Caponata said:

You shouldn't have to carry lifelong debt for getting an education. Does any other nation do this? 

You’re right. That’s why I posted what I did.

[Vegas64 665]

58 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Is it though?  I think of a recent UT grad as someone that definitely had to reach a higher admission bar today in relation to the 80s but I'm unsure the academics are higher.  There is an argument that UT is easier today than ever before.

And don't quote me US News rankings. That is a function of keeping the school as exclusive and small as possible. Any school can pursue this by not growing and/or having a high rejection rate. UT is obviously far from small but it also hasn't grown since the 80s.  The other big ranking factor is helping students stay in school and getting them their diploma within 6 years. This can be manipulated as well if the administration sets this as a top priority.

Finally, I don't think there is an objective measure of academics so its more of an opinion.

Agree it's more of an opinion which is why I said its perceived value. And that perception, I am assuming, is held by employers. From what I can gather, and I could be wrong and maybe you can tell me as someone who was in school and workplace in the 80's and early 90's, but from what I can tell UT was not a destination school for out of staters and definitely not international brains. Today it's a globally prestigious place for international students to come and get a world class education in specific fields (engineering, physics, computer science, etc.) in a different tier than it was in the 80's when it was just an average to above average state school where you can go party hard and get B's and get a decent job. UT was essentially what Texas State is today in the 80's, it seems, no offense.

Edited May 31, 2022 by Vegas64

[TwiceHorn 31283]

49 minutes ago, Vegas64 said:

Agree it's more of an opinion which is why I said its perceived value. And that perception, I am assuming, is held by employers. From what I can gather, and I could be wrong and maybe you can tell me as someone who was in school and workplace in the 80's and early 90's, but from what I can tell UT was not a destination school for out of staters and definitely not international brains. Today it's a globally prestigious place for international students to come and get a world class education in specific fields (engineering, physics, computer science, etc.) in a different tier than it was in the 80's when it was just an average to above average state school where you can go party hard and get B's and get a decent job. UT was essentially what Texas State is today in the 80's, it seems, no offense.

I think it's actually a little broader than that.  UT has been a pretty outstanding school for engineering and business, among other majors/fields for a long time.

Now, it's kind of a destination no matter what your major.  It seems the name on the degree generally carries more clout than it used to.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13414]

I've never heard UT ever being thought of as Texas State is thought of today.

Regardless you'll learn that where you went to school doesn't matter within a year or two of graduation. Your first/second job is important to your career but no one cares about your school after that. UT, Texas State or U of Phoenix. Your work history is the key item and the degree is whether you have one.

['stache 21774]

4 hours ago, Woland said:

It’s another transfer of wealth from the middle class. My farm/ranch friends have been furiously posting memes against loan forgiveness, but the small farmer going bankrupt is the same song and dance. We need to get those two groups voting together.

The middle class has funded subsidies to corporate America for decades and the voters just don't care. We had to bail out the airlines, then the banks, all while their executives were receiving multi-million dollar bonuses and buyouts as a reward for their failures. My local taxes are curently subsidizing a bunch of warehouse jobs in the suburbs because the state seems to value $10 assembly line jobs like they are some great investment. The same voters do seem to care when the benefits would be to the middle or lower classes though. Completely brainwashed electorate.

The real problem is that our economic models used to be that people made enough to afford everything they needed with plenty left over for savings. Things now are priced to extract every ounce of income and force people into debt for the same standard of living. It's why you now read about even six figure families having little or no savings. It's a complete failure of economic policy that won't get fixed because the right wing voters will always blame the wrong people and the wrong policies, because they are so easily manipulated that they just don't care. Lib tears, lol! Let's go Brandon, lol! I'm gonna put a Brandon sticker on the gas pump even though gas prices are through the roof world wide!  Lol, her emails!

[Vegas64 665]

10 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

I've never heard UT ever being thought of as Texas State is thought of today.

Regardless you'll learn that where you went to school doesn't matter within a year or two of graduation. Your first/second job is important to your career but no one cares about your school after that. UT, Texas State or U of Phoenix. Your work history is the key item and the degree is whether you have one.

To bring it back to the original question and conversation of the cost of UT today versus the 80's being 2x, what I'm hearing you say is that the prestige and perceived value of a UT degree in 2022 is not 2x what it was in the 1980's? I was asking you because you brought it up and matriculated in the 80's so I'll defer to you and others like you.

Personally I think UT is 2x the school just based off of stories I hear from peers and network along with admission criteria and difficulty and global and national rankings and UT aspiring to be more than just a solid state school with a perennial top 10 finish in Playboys annual list of best Party School. 

Edited May 31, 2022 by Vegas64

[Pancho 44487]

4 hours ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Have there been any realistic reforms in Austin recently about student loan debt?

The Legislature should hold Texas universities to standards on quality issues like graduation rates and graduates securing decent employment.  It's practically criminal that so many Texas colleges have graduation rates less than 20% and I assume the dropouts frequently have debt. Of course, I recognize the conflict that colleges provide high paying jobs so the tuition money needs to flow in. 

How many colleges in Texas have graduation rates under 20%?  Where are you getting that stat?

[Nice Guy Eddie 13414]

18 minutes ago, Pancho said:

How many colleges in Texas have graduation rates under 20%?  Where are you getting that stat?

https://www.collegesimply.com/colleges/rank/colleges/highest-graduation-rate/state/texas/?start=80

I can't validate the numbers but they appear to be somewhat close to #s reported by a few schools that I checked out. Many are community colleges but I see some 4 years under 25%: Sul Ross, TSU, Houston-Downtown are a few examples ~20%.

And this is graduating within 6 years of starting, or within 150% of the base time to graduate.

 

Edited May 31, 2022 by Nice Guy Eddie