2020 Democratic Debates Watch Thread

[Queen Bitch 1692]

19 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

Williamson was very impressive last night.  

What piece of policy of hers impressed you most last night?

[Js1 86939]

5 minutes ago, longhornmatt said:

Universal healthcare isn’t a new debate.  If it were 70% popular for real, regardless of taxes and every other consideration, both parties would be bending over backwards to do it.   But the devil is in the details.

70% consensus is so far above the consensus on virtually every other political topic (especially ones that go against inertia) that it would be a slam dunk and a race to see who gets to claim credit for it.  You probably can’t get 70% to agree on feeding children and liking Christmas.  

You contend that is something had 70% support, both parties would be bending over backwards for it. 

70-80% of people support the things in HR 1 but Mitch McConnell isn't rushing to make it law. 

 

[Js1 86939]

Just now, Queen Bitch said:

What piece of policy of hers impressed you most last night?

Hey girlfriend! 

[Anastasis 23699]

Added some JC @ 4 cents. Figure he's good for at least 6-8 in the draft of another good debate showing. 

[Ghost of LL 15664]

26 minutes ago, Pig Bellmont said:

Everyone is too quick to write Biden’s epitaph based on this one debate, but I don’t see that yet.

I will say one thing, however, he looked old. 

If Biden continues to perform like that, he will not be the nominee.

Have you seen any indication that Biden won't continue to perform like that?

Between now and the next debates, is he going to get younger?  Is he going to not have a questionable record on race, social justice, and combating economic inequality?  Is he suddenly going to be able to express succinct coherent thoughts?  

[BradInATX 9208]

Stated another way, I'm amazed how setting it out like this makes me think I'd vote for a decent Republican, if such existed.
I think whoever wins the nomination is going to moderate these approaches -- they just need to be careful and start setting the stage now.

Harris seems to be doing that already. Her language on gun control was incredibly nuanced so as to avoid a sound bite.

[BradInATX 9208]

You contend that is something had 70% support, both parties would be bending over backwards for it. 
70-80% of people support the things in HR 1 but Mitch McConnell isn't rushing to make it law. 
 

You ignored his larger point that the same polls that show 70% support for "universal healthcare coverage" show much different numbers when the same question is asked in conjunction with a tax hike and/or elimination of private insurance.

The support for M4A as proposed by Sanders/Warren/etc. with elimination of private plans is well below 50%.

[Fozzz 152]

2 minutes ago, Queen Bitch said:

What piece of policy of hers impressed you most last night?

To me ideological commitments are more important than stated preferred policies because the latter can be easily faked (look at Harris hilariously flip-flopping on M4A for example) while the former isn't.  With respect to Williamson, I find her commitment to an ideology of love, kindness, and friendship to be awe inspiring.

 

No, this is something that can't be faked.  

[Longhorn94 2478]

i thought Harris did really well. I did not think Biden performed poorly. I thought he did about like I expected him to do with having a target on his back. He was fine. I liked Hickenlooper, Swalwell, and Gillibrande (?) for different reasons. The author was humorous but should not have been on the stage. Bernie was the old man yelling at clouds like I expected but he is important to have in the race for his progressive ideas. The only one I was disappointed with was Pete. I probably had unrealistic expectations. I thought he was going to hit a homerun so I was disappointed with the singles he hit. He didnt do bad just not as good as I thought he would.

Coming out of the first round my top 10:

 

1. Harris

2. Warren

3. Biden

4. Beto

5. Klobuchar

6. Booker

7. Pete

8. Hickenlooper

9. Inslee

10. Castro

[bad_teammate 13479]

2 hours ago, Hank Kingsley said:

The desperation is pretty off putting. 

 

A consistent 2nd place in the polls behind Biden, a commanding lead in volunteers, organizers, and donators. A staff dominated by youth and people of color. A record of fighting for justice all the way back to literally marching with MLK and being arrested protesting school segregation. The attention of basically the entire field of candidates, even on a night when he isn't on stage.

Yes, you've nailed it. He's "desperate".

lol

It's very on-brand for a Petehead to dismiss a black woman like Nina speaking on that issue. White liberals erasing non-white Bernie supporters has been a fun game for them since 2015.

Good luck, though, continuing to pump the guy who got crossed over by Eric Swalwell and has been given a hard pass by everyone who doesn't have white skin, a post-grad degree, and a Fresh Air coffee mug.

Why hasn't Knepper been fired?

Pete fired a black police chief for recording racist white cops, why isn't he firing a white police chief who doesn't make his cops turn on their cameras before murdering black people?

How do you say, "a sack full of empty words" in Norwegian?

[BradInATX 9208]

5 minutes ago, longhornmatt said:

This is a good point, but bills to eliminate gerrymandering and money in politics are a threat to self preservation for GOP politicians.   Typically opposing something that 70% of voters truly want is what is bad for self preservation, which seems to be all politicians actually care about.  HR 1 is the rare bill where the GOP is better off opposing the voters because they need the gerrymandering to be competitive.

Well, and you can still  make the same point you're trying to make by disregarding Republicans altogether. 

If 70% of Americans support it (which would mean something like 90% of Democrats), every single Democratic candidate would be in support of M4A. Literally every single one. But alas they are not. In fact (though I haven't actually done the math) it seems that most are supporting a public option vs. full M4A.

[Incredulity 11861]

9 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

To me ideological commitments are more important than stated preferred policies because the latter can be easily faked (look at Harris hilariously flip-flopping on M4A for example) while the former isn't.  With respect to Williamson, I find her commitment to an ideology of love, kindness, and friendship to be awe inspiring.

 

No, this is something that can't be faked.  

I love good performance art.

You're approaching Mr.Phlegm levels.  It's impressive.

[bad_teammate 13479]

The Republican is here to tell us how Democrats should position themselves.

DO GO ON!

[bad_teammate 13479]

15 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

To me ideological commitments are more important than stated preferred policies because the latter can be easily faked (look at Harris hilariously flip-flopping on M4A for example) while the former isn't.  With respect to Williamson, I find her commitment to an ideology of love, kindness, and friendship to be awe inspiring.

You are among people for whom the concept of ideological commitment is not only outside their self-conception, but a bad thing.

They are very proud of basically having no mooring at all. They'll go from Bush to Obama to Romney to Gary Johnson -- wherever the prevailing class-pleasing winds blow -- and not bother a bit about whatever ideological underpinning is guiding them.

In fact, they probably believe they don't even have an ideology.

 

Edited June 28, 2019 by bad_teammate

[Pancho 46054]

It’s starting again 

 

[Amobie 58]

My take:

It's Warren and Harris now.  Everyone else is a distraction.

It was very stupid for candidates to support free healthcare for illegal immigrants.  Moderate Democrats and most working class Dems are not okay with that being part of the party platform.  This is an issue that will cost the nominee votes in the Rust Belt.  It's an insanely stupid policy.  Why not just take the next step and provide healthcare of those who aren't able to make the trek?  Think of all the people with medical needs we can pay for in Mexico, Venezuela and Honduras.  Fuck it, let's just pay for the medical care for the entire continent of South America!

 

 

[Longhorn94 2478]

1 minute ago, Amobie said:

My take:

It's Warren and Harris now.  Everyone else is a distraction.

It was very stupid for candidates to support free healthcare for illegal immigrants.  Moderate Democrats and most working class Dems are not okay with that being part of the party platform.  This is an issue that will cost the nominee votes in the Rust Belt.  It's an insanely stupid policy.  Why not just take the next step and provide healthcare of those who aren't able to make the trek?  Think of all the people with medical needs we can pay for in Mexico, Venezuela and Honduras.  Fuck it, let's just pay for the medical care for the entire continent of South America!

 

 

so they should be turned away left to die on the street? what do you think we do now? 

[bad_teammate 13479]

Chris Hayes understands this forum

 

[Js1 86939]

1 minute ago, bad_teammate said:

Chris Hayes understands this forum

 

Meghan McCain: WHY AREN'T THESE PEOPLE TALKING TO VOTERS LIKE MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE, my father is John McCain

[bolverk 30230]

58 minutes ago, longhornmatt said:

Universal healthcare isn’t a new debate.  If it were 70% popular for real, regardless of taxes and every other consideration, both parties would be bending over backwards to do it.   But the devil is in the details.

 70% consensus is so far above the consensus on virtually every other political topic (especially ones that go against inertia) that it would be a slam dunk and a race to see who gets to claim credit for it.  You probably can’t get 70% to agree on feeding children and liking Christmas.  

 

81%  favor a path to citizenship for those living in the US illegally, 61% oppose deportation, and 60% oppose expanding the border wall.

71% support transgender people serving in the military.

70% think U.S. healthcare has major problems/is in state of crisis

66% of Americans support the legalization of pot.

66% believe that global warming is caused by human activities.

66 & 62% support higher taxes on corporations and the rich.

We have super or near super majorities on all of the above issues. WHY NOT DONE!

Edited June 28, 2019 by bolverk

[Chuckie Finster 22978]

Change atop the leaderboard:

https://www.predictit.org/markets/detail/3633/Who-will-win-the-2020-Democratic-presidential-nomination

Combined with the fact that the Russian twitter trolls and the gatewaypundits of the world made a sharp pivot from Biden to Kamala late last night, I think she's in a good spot.

Edited June 28, 2019 by Chuckie Finster

[Doc Sam Beckett 5854]

5 minutes ago, Longhorn94 said:

so they should be turned away left to die on the street? what do you think we do now? 

It was an incredibly stupid question. MSNBC couldn't have fucked that up harder if they tried. It's obvious that they will be provided health care now, and in the future, regardless of who the president is, it's impossible not to.....but in our current ow my balls country, all that dumbass question did is provide a headline for the mouth breathers.. 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

Funny how all the never Trump Republican pundits have worked their asses off to dominate the liberal media just to tell us we should vote for Joe Biden and not a woman or a progressive.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

3 minutes ago, Chuckie Finster said:

Change atop the leaderboard:

https://www.predictit.org/markets/detail/3633/Who-will-win-the-2020-Democratic-presidential-nomination

Combined with the fact that the Russian twitter trolls and the gatewaypundits of the world made a sharp pivot from Biden to Kamala late last night, I think she's in a good spot.

90 day tracking.  

Red=Biden

Blue=Kamala

Purple=Warren

 

[Amobie 58]

4 minutes ago, Longhorn94 said:

so they should be turned away left to die on the street? what do you think we do now? 

There are certain things hospitals are required by law to treat and there are other non-life threatening ailments that are not.  That's one of the reasons why healthcare costs are going up.  Even under the ACA, illegal/undocumented migrants couldn't purchase health insurance on the exchange.  Providing free healthcare to non-citizens is not a popular policy. 

[Js1 86939]

2 minutes ago, Chuckie Finster said:

Change atop the leaderboard:

https://www.predictit.org/markets/detail/3633/Who-will-win-the-2020-Democratic-presidential-nomination

Combined with the fact that the Russian twitter trolls and the gatewaypundits of the world made a sharp pivot from Biden to Kamala late last night, I think she's in a good spot.

I think she's always been in a good position.  She's a lot of people's 2nd choice and last night was a lot of Democratic primary voters seeing her in action for the first time.  Remember, something like 40% of the primary voters are even tuned in and even less are "highly tuned in".   Like 35% paying "a lot" or "a good deal" of attention.  

It's fucking June 2019.  Iowa isn't for 6 months! 

[bad_teammate 13479]

11/7/16 - PredictIt
Clinton: 82 cents
Trump: 22 cents

[henrygandorf 29219]

dp

Edited June 28, 2019 by henrygandorf

[henrygandorf 29219]

4 minutes ago, Js1 said:

I think she's always been in a good position.  She's a lot of people's 2nd choice and last night was a lot of Democratic primary voters seeing her in action for the first time.  Remember, something like 40% of the primary voters are even tuned in and even less are "highly tuned in".   Like 35% paying "a lot" or "a good deal" of attention.  

It's fucking June 2019.  Iowa isn't for 6 months! 

7+ months away really. 

[Js1 86939]

Yes, and?

He hit an inside straight by winning 3 states by 80k votes and losing the popular vote by 3 million.  20-30% odds were exactly right. 

[Js1 86939]

Just now, henrygandorf said:

7+ months away really. 

6, 7, whatever it takes.

(Meaning this fucking shit is like, 5 months too long)

[bad_teammate 13479]

I'm glad that someone captured one of my favorite moments in GIF form.

BERNIE!

[Longhorn94 2478]

6 minutes ago, Amobie said:

There are certain things hospitals are required by law to treat and there are other non-life threatening ailments that are not.  That's one of the reasons why healthcare costs are going up.  Even under the ACA, illegal/undocumented migrants couldn't purchase health insurance on the exchange.  Providing free healthcare to non-citizens is not a popular policy. 

do you think they were agreeing to provide wellness checks for illegal immigrants?

[henrygandorf 29219]

Just now, Js1 said:

Yes, and?

He hit an inside straight by winning 3 states by 80k votes and losing the popular vote by 3 million.  20-30% odds were exactly right. 

and he’ll have to pull off a bigger magic act this time. 

[Loch Ness Monster 3533]

Biden puts me to sleep. Yawn

[Js1 86939]

Just now, bad_teammate said:

I'm glad that someone captured one of my favorite moments in GIF form.

BERNIE!

Now Biden knows how all those women feel when he is grabbing their shoulders and sniffing their hair. 

[Hank Kingsley 21598]

12 minutes ago, Js1 said:

I think she's always been in a good position.  She's a lot of people's 2nd choice and last night was a lot of Democratic primary voters seeing her in action for the first time.  Remember, something like 40% of the primary voters are even tuned in and even less are "highly tuned in".   Like 35% paying "a lot" or "a good deal" of attention.  

It's fucking June 2019.  Iowa isn't for 6 months! 

Kamala basically stayed on the sidelines the last few months before he good performance last night. With the inevitable surge we'll see the "Kamala is a cop" stories re-enter the spotlight. 

[6th Street 6655]

Last night's far left leanings such as Medicare for all, eliminating private HC, free healthcare for illegals, etc were clearly pandering to the base. The key is how effectively these candidates can pivot back to the center in the general election to win over moderates. Pete and Biden are capable of this. Not sure about the others - Warren and Bernie's platform seem set in stone. Harris is the wild card. The rest are insignificant 

[elfenix 34658]

20 minutes ago, Doc Sam Beckett said:

It was an incredibly stupid question. MSNBC couldn't have fucked that up harder if they tried. It's obvious that they will be provided health care now, and in the future, regardless of who the president is, it's impossible not to.....but in our current ow my balls country, all that dumbass question did is provide a headline for the mouth breathers.. 

i bet EMA doesn't think that's media bias tho

[henrygandorf 29219]

don’t worry, the next round is on cnn. 

[Ghost of LL 15664]

28 minutes ago, Longhorn94 said:

so they should be turned away left to die on the street? what do you think we do now? 

It's not even a matter of dying in the street.  People who have communicable diseases that go untreated run around and infect other people.  It's not an immigration issue; it's a public-health issue.  We need to treat people who suffer from illnesses, irrespective of their immigration status, in order to protect the public at large.

Look--last year there was a resurgence in whooping cough.  Right wingers tried to claim that it was brought by illegal immigrants.  It wasn't.  That was just another racist lie. 

But whatever--let's imagine that it was brought by immigrants.  What sense would it make to refuse to provide those immigrants medical treatment and instead leave them untreated to infect others?  That's not just vile; it's intensely stupid.

Which is to say that it's completely within the GOP's wheelhouse.  "Vile and intensely stupid." might as well be the Republican Party's motto.

[Bozo_Casanova 26773]

i thought Harris did really well. I did not think Biden performed poorly. I thought he did about like I expected him to do with having a target on his back. He was fine. I liked Hickenlooper, Swalwell, and Gillibrande (?) for different reasons. The author was humorous but should not have been on the stage. Bernie was the old man yelling at clouds like I expected but he is important to have in the race for his progressive ideas. The only one I was disappointed with was Pete. I probably had unrealistic expectations. I thought he was going to hit a homerun so I was disappointed with the singles he hit. He didnt do bad just not as good as I thought he would.
Coming out of the first round my top 10:
 
1. Harris
2. Warren
3. Biden
4. Beto
5. Klobuchar
6. Booker
7. Pete
8. Hickenlooper
9. Inslee
10. Castro

I like Beto, but he needed to stay in Congress and run against Abbot. He doesn’t belong at this level for now.

[Biff Tannen 46061]

9 minutes ago, Hank Kingsley said:

Kamala basically stayed on the sidelines the last few months before he good performance last night. With the inevitable surge we'll see the "Kamala is a cop" stories re-enter the spotlight. 

[Biff Tannen 46061]

6 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

"Vile and intensely stupid." might as well be the Republican Party's motto.

Also new Surly motto?

[Ghost of LL 15664]

2 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

Also new Surly motto?

Wear it with pride, my friend.

[Anastasis 23699]

8 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

It's not even a matter of dying in the street.  People who have communicable diseases that go untreated run around and infect other people.  It's not an immigration issue; it's a public-health issue.  We need to treat people who suffer from illnesses, irrespective of their immigration status, in order to protect the public at large.

You need to spend more time formulating this take.  Chronic conditions such as diabetes, heart disease, obesity, and neoplasm drive our health care spending. Infectious disease is relatively low on the list. If we are going to promote a healthcare system that flaunts adverse selection, that system is going to grind to a halt. One of the major drivers of immigration will become health care. Diagnosed with cancer?  Go North.  Need a transplant? Go North. Uncontrolled diabetes or COPD? Go North. Abuelita getting a little more forgetful and needs to be in a long-term care facility? Go North. Increased costs, reduced access, worsened outcomes. But if you are a contender on the D slate this cycle, you have to ignore common sense and raise your hand.  

[Js1 86939]

29 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

At least she had a good response to this at the SC Dem convention - I can read Trump's rap sheet, summarize it and explain it to the American people better than anyone else on stage.

[6th Street 6655]

40 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

It's not even a matter of dying in the street.  People who have communicable diseases that go untreated run around and infect other people.  It's not an immigration issue; it's a public-health issue.  We need to treat people who suffer from illnesses, irrespective of their immigration status, in order to protect the public at large.

Look--last year there was a resurgence in whooping cough.  Right wingers tried to claim that it was brought by illegal immigrants.  It wasn't.  That was just another racist lie. 

But whatever--let's imagine that it was brought by immigrants.  What sense would it make to refuse to provide those immigrants medical treatment and instead leave them untreated to infect others?  That's not just vile; it's intensely stupid.

Which is to say that it's completely within the GOP's wheelhouse.  "Vile and intensely stupid." might as well be the Republican Party's motto.

Agree with this post, but the Midwest mouth breathers that will decide this election unfortunately do not. Nobody in Kenosha, WI or Kalamazoo, MI gives a shit about free healthcare for illegal immigrants.

 

[RomaVicta 30500]

9 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

You need to spend more time formulating this take.  Chronic conditions such as diabetes, heart disease, obesity, and neoplasm drive our health care spending. Infectious disease is relatively low on the list. If we are going to promote a healthcare system that flaunts adverse selection, that system is going to grind to a halt. One of the major drivers of immigration will become health care.

Diagnosed with cancer?  Go North.  Need a transplant? Go North. Uncontrolled diabetes or COPD? Go North. Abuelita getting a little more forgetful and needs to be in a long-term care facility? Go North. Increased costs, reduced access, worsened outcomes.

But if you are a contender on the D slate this cycle, you have to ignore common sense and raise your hand.  

Can you substantiate the middle part of your post which I've separated above?

It suggests that persons in need of a transplant, suffering from cancer, and COPD are walking hundreds of miles to get health care.

Further, these aren't asylum seekers are they? Would they be admitted?

[Hank Scorpio 17924]

1 hour ago, Fozzz said:

To me ideological commitments are more important than stated preferred policies because the latter can be easily faked (look at Harris hilariously flip-flopping on M4A for example) while the former isn't.  With respect to Williamson, I find her commitment to an ideology of love, kindness, and friendship to be awe inspiring.

 

No, this is something that can't be faked.