Dallas Plane Crash

[Dbeasy 15168]

N534FF was the tail number. King Air. Looks like it was taking 10 people to St. Petersburg. Rangers related? Didn’t they play in Florida today?

[futureman 22562]

shit man.  you got a link

[futureman 22562]

https://dfw.cbslocal.com/2019/06/30/10-dead-plane-crash-airport-addison/

says it crashed into a hangar at addison airport shortly after takeoff. 

[Lat22 4051]

I was really hoping it was just a pilot deadheading back to Florida. Real gut punch when I saw it was just about full. 

 

Rangers finished that that series today. 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

This sucks

Edited June 30, 2019 by Hugo Stiglitz

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

Lotta people on a King Air.  Hope it was loaded properly.

[Homercles 10206]

Lotta people on a King Air.  Hope it was loaded properly.

 

That’s what I immediately thought...was it a 350? I’d assume 2 crew + 8 passengers, plus baggage, has got to be pushing MTOW and be carefully managed to maintain balance. Crashing right on takeoff seems suspect to that reason too.

 

On those charter/private flights...do they put in assumed weights like you big boys or is there more carefully controlled approaches to account for a half dozen Huells from BB getting on there. I wonder if a charter/commercial operation would have more regs than a privately operated one.

[woohorn 1131]

“Addison

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

It takes some effort to overload a 350, or load it out of CG, but I can attest to people giving it their best efforts having flown private jets for 11 years at a prior stop.  May not be the case here, but that would be my first assumption given the load, destination and crash site.

 

It depends on whether they have opspecs allowing them to use average weights and a baggage program.  At my last job a summer adult was averaged to be 184 lbs, a carry on was 20lbs, a roll aboard was 30lbs, and anything really heavy up to 100lbs was said to be 60lbs. The passenger weights were adjusted if it were an all male or all female group, and we could also use roster weights if provided after adding 10lbs to each person.  As a rule of thumb I assumed all pax were adults and had 50lbs of baggage ( 1 carry on and 1 checked) during preflight planning.  That usually provided sufficient fudge so as not to stop things during boarding to make sure there wasn't a weight or CG problem.  At this airline we can have plus or minus 2 pax, and plus or minus 10 bags, but they also use performance for weights 2000lbs above our planned takeoff weight.

[Lat22 4051]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Midwest_Flight_5481

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

22 minutes ago, Lat22 said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Midwest_Flight_5481

The Captain was my flight instructor for my private and instrument ratings.  She was top notch. 

[52-80 19276]

11 hours ago, Lat22 said:

I was really hoping it was just a pilot deadheading back to Florida. Real gut punch when I saw it was just about full. 

 

Rangers finished that that series today. 

plane was deadheading alright

[HiggyBaby 2553]

From a local DFW pilot group:

I happened to be pulling a plane out of a patio hangar on Sierra and witnessed the crash. Felt heat on my cheek when it impacted and exploded. It appeared to be a left engine failure that was not reacted to quickly enough (or maybe it was coupled with a mechanical failure and pilots were unable to react appropriately). Plane was rolling to the left at full power and descending - probably banked at least 60 degrees when it hit the hangar. I hope no one ever has to witness a crash like this.

[jkates 316]

28 minutes ago, Dr. Beeper said:

I hear it was some JLL executive.  And that they crashed into Kelcy Warren's hangar.

Steve Thelen and wife Gina, rumored to have been aboard.

[jkates 316]

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/addison/2019/07/01/four-family-members-identified-addison-plane-crash-killed-10

Quote

John Paul II High School in Plano sent a letter to families Monday morning saying two students, their mother and stepfather were among those killed. 

The school identified the students as Alice and Dylan Maritato. The mother and stepfather are Ornella and Brian Ellard. The children are survived by their father, Michele Maritato.

 

[MAROON 445]

Mom was an interior desiger

http://www.ellaitaliandesign.com/about.html

 

Step Dad was an artist, and the son of the owner of EE ranches - large horse breeding operation in Whitesboro.

https://www.brianellard.com/about

 

Man, I can't even imagine what the Dad is going through...well I can, but I don't want to.

Edited July 1, 2019 by MAROON

[LonghornJones 837]

The poor father. I'm not sure what I would do.

[orange dream 1256]

I worked with Steve several years ago on a deal. Good dude, so sad to hear this.

[DDD Dad 14365]

I got an email about 30 minutes ago identifying two other victims as Mary and Jim Titus.  Mary apparently ran the mixed doubles league for TCD (Tennis Competitors of Dallas).

[C-Man 27293]

5 hours ago, MAROON said:

Mom was an interior desiger

http://www.ellaitaliandesign.com/about.html

 

Step Dad was an artist, and the son of the owner of EE ranches - large horse breeding operation in Whitesboro.

https://www.brianellard.com/about

 

Man, I can't even imagine what the Dad is going through...well I can, but I don't want to.

Sounds like Brian was also co-owner of Mille Lire

[futureman 22562]

video up.  first angle starts at 0:43

shorter shot but much more graphic starts at 1:06

plane was upside down when it crashed.

 

[HenryJames 66230]

[Hate 20155]

Damn...at least they didn't have long to think about what was happening. 

[Paper_jam 838]

Looks like it was slewing sideways before it rolled over. Engine out on one side, or rudder malfunction?

 

 

[futureman 22562]

1 hour ago, Paper_jam said:

Looks like it was slewing sideways before it rolled over. Engine out on one side, or rudder malfunction?

I’m no aviator but that was a pretty abrupt and violent rollover.  one of you pilots need to weigh in and explain this. 

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

VMC roll most likely. 

[ClubWhatever 12159]

41 minutes ago, futureman said:

I’m no aviator but that was a pretty abrupt and violent rollover.  one of you pilots need to weigh in and explain this. 

The yaw angle became so severe that the flow over the lagging wing was insufficient to prevent a stall.  Now you’ve got basically half the weight of the plane pushing up on one side and nothing on the other.  Flip.  

[Hate 20155]

VMC roll most likely. 

Oh, the ol VMC roll. I was thinking it was something the average person wouldn’t know about.

[EE2B 1565]

Oh, the ol VMC roll. I was thinking it was something the average person wouldn’t know about.

From google:
Multi engine aircraft usually have their engines off to either side of the fuselage. This means that if one engine fails, the other engine will produce what's called asymmetric thrust (one engine is stronger than the other). This in turn, because it's off to the side of the aircraft will cause it to yaw in the direction of the dead engine. Should the dead engine also have its prop windmilling, it'll cause more drag than if the prop blades were turned parallel to the wind and thus aggravate the situation by not only not producing thrust but actually acting as a speed brake.

To counteract this and continue flying straight you'd have to apply the aircraft's rudder. The rudder is an airfoil sticking out into the wind in order to yaw the aircraft, thus if the amount of air flowing over it is reduced, the effectiveness of the rudder is reduced. This has the effect that there's a minimum airspeed (i.e. minimum amount of airflow over the rudder) that's enough to allow the rudder to counteract the asymmetric thrust as well as some other properties like engine torque. This speed is called 𝑣𝑚𝑐
v
m
c
, or minimum controllable airspeed (there are actually two of these, one airborne and one on the ground). If speed drops below this airspeed, the plane will start to increase the yaw away from the live engine, to the point where eventually the outer wing produces more lift than the inner wing and the aircraft rolls over.

That's the 𝑣𝑚𝑐
v
m
c
roll. Avoiding it is a matter of keeping the airspeed up to maintain rudder authority, and/or reducing thrust to the live engine while regaining airspeed. Further steps, like identifying the failed engine and feathering its prop, as well as flying with a slight bank towards the live engine should be undertaken as well as part of the recovery.

Furthermore it's advisable to never turn into the dead engine, as the live engine will make it harder to stop the turn. Turning into the live engine will make it harder to start the turn, but the engine will help you get out of it.

Since the engines usually spin in the same direction, the effect of torque differs, the torque of one engine aggravates the situation, where the torque of the others alleviates it, thus 𝑣𝑚𝑐
v
m
c
is specified as the minimum controllable speed if the latter (known as the critical engine) fails and the prop continues to windmill, i.e. the worst possible aerodynamic scenario in the case of a single engine failure barring an uncontained failure causing damage or otherwise changing the aerodynamic properties of the aircraft.

[EuroHorn 3273]

Abrupt left engine out would have caused yaw to the left increasing lift on the right wing and then roll left. 

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

1 hour ago, Hate said:

 

Oh, the ol VMC roll. I was thinking it was something the average person wouldn’t know about.

 

Well, you know, I figured that you were smart enough to access a message board and therefore could google something like the poster below you. 

The Vmc roll happened at the end. Hopefully it was an auto feather issue and not something stupid like  overloading the plane or loading it out of its envelope. Also, the gear come up in an engine failure scenario. 

The simplest explanation is that they no longer had enough rudder to counteract the asymmetric thrust and torque of the operative engine. Whether that was due to the plane being too slow, overweight, the CG being too far aft, an auto feather malfunction or a combo thereof is to be determined. 

A friend and former 350 pilot ran the numbers for me. They were within a few hundred pounds of max weight and likely loaded near aft CG given 10 persons aboard, 30 lbs of baggage each, 50lbs of baggage in the wing lockers, and enough fuel to complete the trip with no alternates and IFR reserves. 

Edited July 17, 2019 by Bobby_Batronic

[KaiserSoze 998]

30 lbs of baggage each, 50lbs of baggage in the wing lockers

Ah, so they checked their privilege- got it, thanks.

[Hate 20155]

Well, you know, I figured that you were smart enough to access a message board and therefore could google something like the poster below you. 
The Vmc roll happened at the end. Hopefully it was an auto feather issue and not something stupid like  overloading the plane or loading it out of its envelope. Also, the gear come up in an engine failure scenario. 
The simplest explanation is that they no longer had enough rudder to counteract the asymmetric thrust and torque of the operative engine. Whether that was due to the plane being too slow, overweight, the CG being too far aft, an auto feather malfunction or a combo thereof is to be determined. 
A friend and former 350 pilot ran the numbers for me. They were within a few hundred pounds of max weight and likely loaded near aft CG given 10 persons aboard, 30 lbs of baggage each, 50lbs of baggage in the wing lockers, and enough fuel to complete the trip with no alternates and IFR reserves. 

You figured wrong. I figured someone that responded to a post requesting some expertise would actually post their expertise. I’ll consult google from now on though.

[Larry T. Spider 1747]

8 minutes ago, Hate said:

 

You figured wrong. I figured someone that responded to a post requesting some expertise would actually post their expertise. I’ll consult google from now on though.

 

It’s actually quite reliable. I use it for all my health concerns.

[RPM 26382]

6 hours ago, Hate said:

You figured wrong. I figured someone that responded to a post requesting some expertise would actually post their expertise. I’ll consult google from now on though.

 

To be fair, BB called it in another thread in response to a question I had about single engine torque. Between torque/drag/alt/airspeed they were furked. 

[DaysOff 7988]

VMC roll most likely. 

Looks like a classic engine out Vmc roll. Airplane never left the airport property.

[Lat22 4051]

Damn. At least it was quick. 

[52-80 19276]

10 hours ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

Well, you know, I figured that you were smart enough to access a message board and therefore could google something like the poster below you. 

The Vmc roll happened at the end. Hopefully it was an auto feather issue and not something stupid like  overloading the plane or loading it out of its envelope. Also, the gear come up in an engine failure scenario. 

The simplest explanation is that they no longer had enough rudder to counteract the asymmetric thrust and torque of the operative engine. Whether that was due to the plane being too slow, overweight, the CG being too far aft, an auto feather malfunction or a combo thereof is to be determined. 

A friend and former 350 pilot ran the numbers for me. They were within a few hundred pounds of max weight and likely loaded near aft CG given 10 persons aboard, 30 lbs of baggage each, 50lbs of baggage in the wing lockers, and enough fuel to complete the trip with no alternates and IFR reserves. 

Ah, 30 lbs weight reference, I was thinking it was a mass unit the average person wouldn’t know about.

[jkates 316]

17 hours ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

Well, you know, I figured that you were smart enough to access a message board and therefore could google something like the poster below you. 

The Vmc roll happened at the end. Hopefully it was an auto feather issue and not something stupid like  overloading the plane or loading it out of its envelope. Also, the gear come up in an engine failure scenario. 

The simplest explanation is that they no longer had enough rudder to counteract the asymmetric thrust and torque of the operative engine. Whether that was due to the plane being too slow, overweight, the CG being too far aft, an auto feather malfunction or a combo thereof is to be determined. 

A friend and former 350 pilot ran the numbers for me. They were within a few hundred pounds of max weight and likely loaded near aft CG given 10 persons aboard, 30 lbs of baggage each, 50lbs of baggage in the wing lockers, and enough fuel to complete the trip with no alternates and IFR reserves. 

Given the low altitude and airspeed at which the trouble occurred, was this recoverable? Or were they likely doomed? 

[Brisketexan 105490]

19 minutes ago, jkates said:

Given the low altitude and airspeed at which the trouble occurred, was this recoverable? Or were they likely doomed? 

I think from the discussion above, a combination of factors means they were doomed -- no pilot could have saved their bacon.

Because of their initial low speed, and the weight of the aircraft fully loaded, one engine couldn't give them enough airspeed to overcome the drag of the dead-side engine/wing.  And because they were at a super-low altitude still, they couldn't point the nose down to use gravity to pick up speed.  They were going too slow to maintain lift, and they had no way to gain speed to regain lift, so they were done.

Did I get that right?

[Hate 20155]

Ask google.

[Brisketexan 105490]

1 minute ago, Hate said:

Ask google.

Google just told me the answer was 288.

F'n Google.

[DaysOff 7988]

I think from the discussion above, a combination of factors means they were doomed -- no pilot could have saved their bacon.
Because of their initial low speed, and the weight of the aircraft fully loaded, one engine couldn't give them enough airspeed to overcome the drag of the dead-side engine/wing.  And because they were at a super-low altitude still, they couldn't point the nose down to use gravity to pick up speed.  They were going too slow to maintain lift, and they had no way to gain speed to regain lift, so they were done.
Did I get that right?

It's right. But it's wrong and that's on the pilot in command. The airplane is designed to fly off the runway on one engine beyond the takeoff decision speed and meet obstacle requirements. They were either over loaded which is likely given the manifest or the startle factor got him before he could react.

[Brisketexan 105490]

Interesting.  Thanks for filling that part in.  So, it may be that once they passed the point of no-return, they were fucked no matter what, BUT, that's on the pilot because they shouldn't have been so overloaded?

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

If they were overloaded. Big if. They may simply have been right up against the limit performance wise. 

But that plane will climb at 5-700 fpm on one engine, and do it all day at max weight, aft CG etc. so long as it’s properly configured and flown at the correct single engine speed  

Again, they were hosed if something happened with the autofeather system whether it failed or wasn’t armed.  The prop didn’t appear to be feathered in the video which should raise some questions. As should the failure to retract the gear. Maintaining their flight path laterally may have been impossible if the engine didn’t feather. 

i do find  it hard to believe that an issue was recognized 12 seconds before the crash AND they were going faster than their accelerate/stop decision speed (V2).

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

1 hour ago, jkates said:

Given the low altitude and airspeed at which the trouble occurred, was this recoverable? Or were they likely doomed? 

It was recoverable supposing the engine feathered appropriately, the plane was loaded correctly, configured correctly and flown correctly.  All bets are off if one of those parameters weren’t met. The line personnel at the FBO where they boarded will be able to shed some light on the loading of the plane. 

I always credited each passenger with 50lbs of baggage (one roll aboard and one carry on) when planning, because no one ever brought just one bag unless it was a day trip. The individuals in question were apparently not very large, but who knows what their travel habits were with regard to baggage? 

The scenario I posited above only supposed that each person brought one bag, with an extra 1-2 bags placed in the wing lockers.  

[RPM 26382]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

Google just told me the answer was 288.

F'n Google.

That's about how far they flew, 288 feet.

[Rhyners 2]

On 7/1/2019 at 1:43 PM, Dr. Beeper said:

https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/School-Identifies-Family-of-4-as-Victims-in-Deadly-Addison-Plane-Crash-512063302.html

this is updated and includes confirmation of Thelens. 

Just realized from looking at this story that Matthew Palmer was the son in law of my wife's old boss Susan back when we lived in Texas and she did residential real estate leasing.

[Hate 20155]

30 minutes ago, Rhyners said:

Just realized from looking at this story that Matthew Palmer was the son in law of my wife's old boss Susan back when we lived in Texas and she did residential real estate leasing.

 

[RMac5 1551]

Not sure why but aviation crashes intrigue the shit out of me. 

Have a cousin that was a fighter pilot in Nam, always enjoy getting his take on shit like this.  He flies commercial now for one of the majors. He used to fly for NetJet and has meet some incredible people.

Edited July 19, 2019 by RMac5