Angels Tyler Skaggs has died

[0xdeadbeef 1651]

Let's Play Things I didn't know

Quote

Fentanyl is one of the cheaper drugs sold on the street and is frequently used to cut more expensive drugs like heroin and cocaine to increase the potency. However, many people are unaware of the dangerous mix and often overdose. Even prescribed fentanyl medication can prove to be lethal; a speck of powder fentanyl equaling a few grains of salt can kill an adult man.

Damn. I'll stick with killing my liver with product from Specs. 

[Pato del Muerto 52532]

My last place of employment was a sch2 manufacturer, made things like oxy and hydrocodone, hydromorphone (dilauded trade name in final dose form) and cocaine. They looked into fentanyl but there was no profit margin in it. 

The market for opioids dropped so much the past year or two that the company mothballed the facility a month ago. Losing 125 jobs in a town of 9,000 is a huge hit, with most having to leave the state to find new work. 

Anyway, yes the stuff is potent in its pure form. 

Edited August 31, 2019 by Pato del Muerto

[Nice Guy Eddie 13515]

I bet that before Saturday is over, Skaggs’ family comes out with a statement that blames a doctor for his addiction. Everyone has to blame an injury and resulting poor medical treatment as opposed to someone that just liked abusing drugs.  The latter implies a character problem that doesn’t play with juries.

there will also be anonymous mlb sources that will estimate how many players are abusing drugs like oxy, fentanyl, etc.

[kevwun 15809]

Short of him getting the drugs from an Angel's employee, I am not a fan of the blame everyone but our son approach.

[GreenspointTexas 9662]

how the fuck u gonna mix that shit together? What is he, 12 years old? Jfc

[TwiceHorn 31511]

13 hours ago, DanRydell said:

 

I’m far from an expert but my understanding is it’s not actually oxy, it’s Mexican cartel-made counterfeit oxy, and they make it partly with fentanyl because it’s cheaper and/or easier.

 

Ok that makes more sense.  I assumed it was legit oxy + fentanyl.  Not to mention the problems of adding fentanyl to a pill unless you're making the pill from scratch.

[Beau Vine 54296]

4 hours ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

I bet that before Saturday is over, Skaggs’ family comes out with a statement that blames a doctor for his addiction. Everyone has to blame an injury and resulting poor medical treatment as opposed to someone that just liked abusing drugs.  The latter implies a character problem that doesn’t play with juries.

 

1.  He had apparently been remarkably injury-free since his TJ surgery.

2.  I think Oxy's reputation has advanced enough that there's not the stigma of getting addicted to it.  That shit is evil.  

[Beau Vine 54296]

10 hours ago, FondrenRoad said:

He bought it from someone, but why does it matter?  Just another shitty war on drugs solution is on the way, I guess. If you want to make sure that addicts have treatment or at least die from clean shit, you need to stop blaming the pusher.  Legalize everything. Then you know everything is pharmacy pure. Addicts may still die, but at least they will be dieing on purpose. But they'd also have access to new rehab programs that could be funded by taxes on all scheduled narcotics. 

This is an incredibly terrible take on Oxy.  That shit should be illegal now, should have never been available even via prescription.  

[Beau Vine 54296]

10 hours ago, Hate said:

I thought you could pretty much crush anything.

I crushed your mom last night.

[Hate 20126]

Yeah, she mentioned that she felt something weird last night. She said it was like a small prick.

[Pato del Muerto 52532]

26 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

This is an incredibly terrible take on Oxy.  That shit should be illegal now, should have never been available even via prescription.  

It should have stayed as what it was originally, for severe post surgical/major trauma pain and end of life pain management. 

[TwiceHorn 31511]

I dunno, oxycontin has a medical purpose. It just so happens that what gives it a medical purpose makes it a choice recreational drug (high concentration for time release). It's not inherently more addictive than oxycodone, hydrocodone, or any similar opiate. 

 

[RockyMountainHighHorn 894]

As someone who has been addicted to opiates, it’s terribly hard to OD on fentanyl laced oxy through oral ingestion. Not saying it’s impossible but I would almost guarantee he snorted or smoked it-therefore increasing chance of an overdose. The absorption rate through oral ingestion is just too low. And yes, it’s almost impossible to get real oxy’s anymore on the street. Lastly, I don’t believe oxy should be outlawed. In 2009 when I got addicted and had no idea you could get addicted to it, I was truly naive but also involved in the TCU thing so I had it coming. Can’t blame anyone other than me although i have a big hate for Purdue pharma and the FDA. 10 years later, you’d have to live in a hole to not know the dangers of opiates or hear about the opiate crisis in our country. Insurance companies and the government must work together to allow for treatment to become more feasible for the thousands of addicts out there and that’s the only way things will get better. 

[Beau Vine 54296]

42 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I dunno, oxycontin has a medical purpose. It just so happens that what gives it a medical purpose makes it a choice recreational drug (high concentration for time release). It's not inherently more addictive than oxycodone, hydrocodone, or any similar opiate. 

 

You can throw all those into the same category.  

[runthebone 8022]

Oxycontin is oxycodone.

Part of the problem is the stupid fucking idea that "pain is a vital sign" that doctors are obligated to treat.  Instead, it is something subjective, and doctors should not be evaluated and graded on whether they satisfy every patient's personal desire for pain relief.

[Goo Punch 4275]

12 hours ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

I bet that before Saturday is over, Skaggs’ family comes out with a statement that blames a doctor for his addiction. Everyone has to blame an injury and resulting poor medical treatment as opposed to someone that just liked abusing drugs.  The latter implies a character problem that doesn’t play with juries.

there will also be anonymous mlb sources that will estimate how many players are abusing drugs like oxy, fentanyl, etc.

jesus christ, do you also blame rape victims? you're a)making an assumption based on nothing factual, and b)trivializing the scores of former athletes who have had to suffer with all of the ill effects of opioid addiction from drugs which they were introduced to because of injuries, and *not* "because they just like to abuse drugs." fucking hell. 

[tx 3 putt 77202]

Sorry for Partying !

[Nice Guy Eddie 13515]

2 hours ago, Goo Punch said:

jesus christ, do you also blame rape victims? you're a)making an assumption based on nothing factual, and b)trivializing the scores of former athletes who have had to suffer with all of the ill effects of opioid addiction from drugs which they were introduced to because of injuries, and *not* "because they just like to abuse drugs." fucking hell. 

Calm down. I’m blaming his family for pointing the finger at the Angels.  Now if an Angel employee held him down to inject fentanyl, then I’m on board with blaming the Angels or at least that person.

[Beau Vine 54296]

On 8/30/2019 at 11:45 PM, FondrenRoad said:

Skaggs’ family, and Rusty Hardin, are alleging an Angels employee gave Skaggs fentanyl-laced oxy.

How ugly does this situation have to get before they take his picture off their CF wall?

[UDontKnow 10447]

On 8/31/2019 at 9:35 AM, TwiceHorn said:

I dunno, oxycontin has a medical purpose. It just so happens that what gives it a medical purpose makes it a choice recreational drug (high concentration for time release). It's not inherently more addictive than oxycodone, hydrocodone, or any similar opiate. 

 

You know Fentanyl has a medical purpose too. Moral of the story is: Don't take medications unless they're prescribed for you and take medications as prescribed. There is always a label on filled opiate prescriptions instructing not to consume with alcohol. It's a tragic situation, but one that appears could have been completely avoided.

[gsoda3 3271]

6 hours ago, Beau Vine said:

How ugly does this situation have to get before they take his picture off their CF wall?

they'd just say something like as his team and LAA family we're honoring his life and not the circumstances of his death.

Edited September 2, 2019 by gsoda3

[UDontKnow 10447]

On 8/31/2019 at 12:36 PM, runthebone said:

Oxycontin is oxycodone.

Part of the problem is the stupid fucking idea that "pain is a vital sign" that doctors are obligated to treat.  Instead, it is something subjective, and doctors should not be evaluated and graded on whether they satisfy every patient's personal desire for pain relief.

There are so many other modalities worth trying for mild to moderate pain relief, but we live in a society that demands a pill for everything. Newsflash: Athletes push their bodies to their respective limits - not everyone can do that. When it gets to be too much, sometimes the athletes hang up their cleats, jerseys, etc (recent example: Andrew Luck) which is a better option than self-medication especially mixing substances.

[Lat22 4015]

There is nothing “accidental” about popping (or smoking, snorting, etc) oxys and drinking booze. 

[huge 3795]

So every OD is on purpose?

[Vic Mackey 47090]

26 minutes ago, huge said:

So every OD is on purpose?

No overdose is an accident. They are choosing to put those substances in their bodies. They know the consequences of what could happen every time they do it.

[Goo Punch 4275]

people accidentally overdose all of the time, come on now. 

[Nope 3121]

13 minutes ago, Goo Punch said:

people accidentally overdose all of the time, come on now. 

Wrong 

All overdoses and pregnancies are intentional.

[cabowabo 4492]

Just like many "accidentally" drink too much, drive, and kill people.

[1leggedduck 443]

The addicted are not "partying" anymore at that stage. They're just trying to keep the monster at bay. Maybe they got that way partying or maybe they got that way being prescribed addictive drugs. Doesn't matter. The overdose is accidental because the substance is unregulated and there's no way to gauge potency. Be careful preaching about addiction. Sometimes people haven't encountered the substance that will turn into their monster. Get into a bad accident or have a major surgery and you may discover your monster.

[Pato del Muerto 52532]

43 minutes ago, 1leggedduck said:

The addicted are not "partying" anymore at that stage. They're just trying to keep the monster at bay. Maybe they got that way partying or maybe they got that way being prescribed addictive drugs. Doesn't matter. The overdose is accidental because the substance is unregulated and there's no way to gauge potency. Be careful preaching about addiction. Sometimes people haven't encountered the substance that will turn into their monster. Get into a bad accident or have a major surgery and you may discover your monster.

Is that how you lost a leg?

[Goo Punch 4275]

1 hour ago, cabowabo said:

Just like many "accidentally" drink too much, drive, and kill people.

yeah, that's the same thing.

 

whole lotta dumb coming out in this thread.

[Goo Punch 4275]

also shouts out to our government for demonizing addiction and continuing to fight the ever futile war on drugs. lotta people out there who need help but have nowhere to turn. 

[TwiceHorn 31511]

On 9/1/2019 at 10:26 PM, UDontKnow said:

You know Fentanyl has a medical purpose too. Moral of the story is: Don't take medications unless they're prescribed for you and take medications as prescribed. There is always a label on filled opiate prescriptions instructing not to consume with alcohol. It's a tragic situation, but one that appears could have been completely avoided.

Yes, I know that. It was in response to BeauVine's "take all that shit off the market" post.

And, while I don't believe it applies to all opiate "addicts," there are some addicts that I am relatively certain will inevitably become addicts, simply by taking addictive substances as prescribed.  At least initially.

I'm not sure all the addicts of the opiate crisis are true addicts.  They may not have the fortitude or motivation to get through withdrawal, but if they did, a lot of them would probably stay stopped, unlike a true addict.

Edited September 6, 2019 by TwiceHorn

[TwiceHorn 31511]

On 9/1/2019 at 10:58 PM, UDontKnow said:

There are so many other modalities worth trying for mild to moderate pain relief, but we live in a society that demands a pill for everything. Newsflash: Athletes push their bodies to their respective limits - not everyone can do that. When it gets to be too much, sometimes the athletes hang up their cleats, jerseys, etc (recent example: Andrew Luck) which is a better option than self-medication especially mixing substances.

Pain as a "vital sign," didn't really happen because of "popular demand."  It certainly exploded because of it, but it initially started as a legitimate medical movement that was pushed along rapidly and to the extreme by pharma and their "non-addictive" narcotics.

[TwiceHorn 31511]

5 hours ago, Vic Mackey said:

No overdose is an accident. They are choosing to put those substances in their bodies. They know the consequences of what could happen every time they do it.

No vehicle crash is an accident.  Drivers are choosing to get behind the wheel.  They know the consequences of what could happen every time they do it.

No matter how risky the activity, if death or serious injury isn't intended when the conduct is embarked upon, it is still an accident or at least an unintended and unintentional result, to the extent they differ.

Edited September 6, 2019 by TwiceHorn

[Goo Punch 4275]

3 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Yes, I know that. It was in response to BeauVine's "take all that shit off the market" post.

And, while I don't believe it applies to all opiate "addicts," there are some addicts that I am relatively certain will inevitably become addicts, simply by taking addictive substances as prescribed.  At least initially.

When I had to go to drug rehab it was for clonazepam, lorazepam, and Ambien, all of which were prescribed to me and none of which I abused. I was on all three medications for nearly a decade and due to my hypersensitivity i simply became more and more addicted over time, requiring larger and larger doses as time went on. I became an addict without ever "partying" or abusing my drugs. It's pretty fucking sad in my opinion that we still have so many people who are clueless to the fact that people like me exist. According to these people if I had died during my benzo withdrawals I would have deserved it.

[Goo Punch 4275]

Oh and by the way, go ahead and put yourself through an entire week of benzo withdrawals and then see if you still have it in you to talk shit about anyone who decides to continue using as opposed to the alternative. A lot of times nowadays you can't even get into a program without first being hospitalized for withdrawals.

Edited September 6, 2019 by Goo Punch

[David Dennison 18938]

6 hours ago, Vic Mackey said:

No overdose is an accident. They are choosing to put those substances in their bodies. They know the consequences of what could happen every time they do it.

No automobile fatality is an accident. The victim is choosing to drive. They know the consequences of what could happen every time they do it.

[Pato del Muerto 52532]

Take the hook out, derka. 

[Helobious 9463]

3 hours ago, David Dennison said:

No automobile fatality is an accident. The victim is choosing to drive. They know the consequences of what could happen every time they do it.

I wonder how much all of this coddling and guilt-absolution actually helps addicts. I don’t know that the idea that they are just powerless and not responsible for their choices is all that productive.

[Beau Vine 54296]

5 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Yes, I know that. It was in response to BeauVine's "take all that shit off the market" post.

And, while I don't believe it applies to all opiate "addicts," there are some addicts that I am relatively certain will inevitably become addicts, simply by taking addictive substances as prescribed.  At least initially.

I'm not sure all the addicts of the opiate crisis are true addicts.  They may not have the fortitude or motivation to get through withdrawal, but if they did, a lot of them would probably stay stopped, unlike a true addict.

The first time a doctor prescribed me oxycodone, I asked, "Isn't this stuff really addictive?"  "Yes it is," was all he said.  They've changed things up now, but two months later, I had four different doctors offering to write me oxycodone prescriptions.  

Edited September 7, 2019 by Beau Vine

[1leggedduck 443]

On 9/6/2019 at 6:12 PM, Pato del Muerto said:

Is that how you lost a leg?

Nope. Got drunk and a bus ran over me. No, that was the chicken. It was a turtle.

[1leggedduck 443]

On 9/6/2019 at 6:27 PM, Goo Punch said:

Oh and by the way, go ahead and put yourself through an entire week of benzo withdrawals and then see if you still have it in you to talk shit about anyone who decides to continue using as opposed to the alternative. A lot of times nowadays you can't even get into a program without first being hospitalized for withdrawals.

Benzos are what I had to deal with. Not me, but my wife. The funny thing is, that at first, they really helped her. Problem is they were her monster, and by the time she realized it, she was physically addicted. Once that happens, the doctors want nothing else to do with you. They prescribed it but they don't help when you can't stop taking it.  It took three attempts, each terrible, for her to finally get clear of them. There really isn't help. The "make the call" bullshit you see on TV commercials is just a grab for the 30 days most insurance will cover for a "program." Worthless, and unavailable to the uninsured. The community based places want you to go in-patient, but have no room for months. They also expect complete buy in to their 12 step thing, which is great for many people, but not everyone. All I'm saying is until you see how it slowly stops becoming a choice and instead becomes something the person has to do just to avoid the agony of with drawl, you really shouldn't preach. It is very humbling to see a strong person go through the process. I'm sorry for anyone who is in any stage of it. 

[TwiceHorn 31511]

On 9/6/2019 at 11:34 PM, Beau Vine said:

The first time a doctor prescribed me oxycodone, I asked, "Isn't this stuff really addictive?"  "Yes it is," was all he said.  They've changed things up now, but two months later, I had four different doctors offering to write me oxycodone prescriptions.  

Don't assume that all physicians know their way around addiction. See 1leggedduck's post. Many of them, like the general public, assume that if taken "as prescribed," there will be no problems.  The problem is, there's a certain part of the population that just isn't going to be able to take them "as prescribed."  Some have no impulse control and will start "partying" with them almost immediately, others are going to have addictive tendencies activated.

I have a belief, that is apparently supported by some science, that when in actual pain, the addictive propensities of narcotics are attenuated.  But as soon as you start taking them "in anticipation" of pain, rather than when in actual pain, you may be off on the yellow brick road.

[TwiceHorn 31511]

11 minutes ago, 1leggedduck said:

Benzos are what I had to deal with. Not me, but my wife. The funny thing is, that at first, they really helped her. Problem is they were her monster, and by the time she realized it, she was physically addicted. Once that happens, the doctors want nothing else to do with you. They prescribed it but they don't help when you can't stop taking it.  It took three attempts, each terrible, for her to finally get clear of them. There really isn't help. The "make the call" bullshit you see on TV commercials is just a grab for the 30 days most insurance will cover for a "program." Worthless, and unavailable to the uninsured. The community based places want you to go in-patient, but have no room for months. They also expect complete buy in to their 12 step thing, which is great for many people, but not everyone. All I'm saying is until you see how it slowly stops becoming a choice and instead becomes something the person has to do just to avoid the agony of with drawl, you really shouldn't preach. It is very humbling to see a strong person go through the process. I'm sorry for anyone who is in any stage of it. 

Benzos are really effective for anxiety, because they put you in a mild stupor immediately.  But that's the problem with them.  I say treat them with the same caution as opiates.

Most rehabs rely on 12-step because, empirically, it works.  If it is just a "physical addiction," supervised detox should work.  If it doesn't work, then you're getting into 12 step territory.  There's no way to tell except by detoxing.

Physical withdrawal from most addictive substances (interestingly, except cocaine, generally) is no joke and is a significant barrier to sobriety for people.  But, it also pales in comparison to the psychological hell that is the other aspects of addiction.

Edited September 10, 2019 by TwiceHorn

[gsoda3 3271]

On 9/6/2019 at 11:14 PM, Helobious said:

I wonder how much all of this coddling and guilt-absolution actually helps addicts. I don’t know that the idea that they are just powerless and not responsible for their choices is all that productive.

it's the opposite.  over the past 30 years we've seen the unproductiveness that results from NOT realizing addicts are powerless over their choices.  once we accept that and realize as a society we have an obligation to help them we can move forward in healing.  btw herein lies the solution for preventing mass homelessness. 

[TwiceHorn 31511]

30 minutes ago, gsoda3 said:

it's the opposite.  over the past 30 years we've seen the unproductiveness that results from NOT realizing addicts are powerless over their choices.  once we accept that and realize as a society we have an obligation to help them we can move forward in healing.  btw herein lies the solution for preventing mass homelessness. 

Yes.  What he posted is not what 12 steps teaches.  It teaches that you have lost the power of choice over taking the drug of choice.  It doesn't teach that you have lost the power of choice entirely or absolve in any way the malfeasances the addict has committed.  Addicts still have the choice to seek and accept help and no addiction science or remedy absolves them of that.

Edited September 10, 2019 by TwiceHorn

[Helobious 9463]

I know it’s out of the scope of the thread now, but it seems that addictions & overdose deaths continue to climb year after year. So I don’t know that whatever 12 steps or what any other addiction help movement teaches is working. 

[TwiceHorn 31511]

12 minutes ago, Helobious said:

I know it’s out of the scope of the thread now, but it seems that addictions & overdose deaths continue to climb year after year. So I don’t know that whatever 12 steps or what any other addiction help movement teaches is working. 

If people don't seek help, they don't receive it, 12 steps or otherwise.  That is the fundamental problem.

The secondary problem is that recovery from substance abuse, whether it requires only detox, or a more comprehensive psychological program, is a) voluntary and b) requires some physically and psychologically uncomfortable work.

You don't just prescribe a 12 step program and expect someone to get well like its penicillin or something.  Like most mental health conditions, part of the illness is resistance to treatment.

[Goo Punch 4275]

6 hours ago, 1leggedduck said:

Benzos are what I had to deal with. Not me, but my wife. The funny thing is, that at first, they really helped her. Problem is they were her monster, and by the time she realized it, she was physically addicted. Once that happens, the doctors want nothing else to do with you. They prescribed it but they don't help when you can't stop taking it.  It took three attempts, each terrible, for her to finally get clear of them. There really isn't help. The "make the call" bullshit you see on TV commercials is just a grab for the 30 days most insurance will cover for a "program." Worthless, and unavailable to the uninsured. The community based places want you to go in-patient, but have no room for months. They also expect complete buy in to their 12 step thing, which is great for many people, but not everyone. All I'm saying is until you see how it slowly stops becoming a choice and instead becomes something the person has to do just to avoid the agony of with drawl, you really shouldn't preach. It is very humbling to see a strong person go through the process. I'm sorry for anyone who is in any stage of it. 

very well said, especially the part about the lack of real help being available. so many people have to suffer through this garbage with little to no help, and the majority of folks have no idea what that is like or just how easily it could happen to them.  

Edited September 10, 2019 by Goo Punch