For or against reparations?

[TexArcher 37997]

Vote, discuss.

[immamac 42882]

Reparations for what/whom? 

[TexArcher 37997]

I'm left-of-center on most things, but this is a hard no for me.

First of all, the estimated cost (per PBS) is anywhere from 5 to 12 trillion dollars.  The 2019 federal budget is 4.76 trillion dollars.  It would ruin this country financially.

Secondly, who gets reparations?  All black people?  Even the ones who came here from Europe or Africa in the last decade or two?  Do they only go to black people who can prove their ancestry back past the Civil War, or segregation, or what?  Where's the line?

And then who's next in line?  Native Americans, sure.  What about the Irish immigrants who were treated like shit?  The Chinese?  Etc, etc?

This is Pandora's Box and it needs to stay closed, imo.

 

[Fondren & Main 6726]

Party of FREE SHIT!

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

Slavery?

For or against 

discuss 

[immamac 42882]

This thread is too broad. 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

Agin it.

 

Tex archer spells it out pretty well. If we're going to give black folks money then logically the native Americans are due a shit load as well, if not more. Our gov't genocided them out of existence in some cases.

[TexArcher 37997]

 

This thread is too broad. 

We're obviously talking about the United States making reparations to black Americans for slavery, segregation, Jim Crow, etc -- a topic that's been widely discussed for years, but especially in the past few weeks.

Why is it too broad to talk about here?

[Mileslong 4728]

I’m for it as long as France includes reparations for the decedents of the huguenots which my family was a part of.

[immamac 42882]

You didn't phrase the question like that which is why I asked reparations for what. That should be fine now. 

[Gil Bang 25985]

So, I'm not sure how anybody came up with an cost estimate.  Has somebody proposed a dollar-per-person amount? 

This country is full of people that have multi-generational wealth.  If any of that wealth came via slavery, then those motherfuckers need to pay a tax.  A hefty fucking tax. 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

 

I’m for it as long as France includes reparations for the decedents of the huguenots which my family was a part of.

And I better get a cut from the queen for what she, and her kin did to my kin back in Ireland.

[TexArcher 37997]

 

You didn't phrase the question like that which is why I asked reparations for what. That should be fine now. 

Well it wouldn't all fit, lol!!

[Js1 85460]

 

This thread is too broad. 

Yup. You gotta define it. Straight cash payment? Zero interest loans? Free public college tuition? 

Way too vague here. Few are going to support straight cash payments 

[Gil Bang 25985]

 

I'm left-of-center on most things, but this is a hard no for me.

First of all, the estimated cost (per PBS) is anywhere from 5 to 12 trillion dollars.  The 2019 federal budget is 4.76 trillion dollars.  It would ruin this country financially.

Secondly, who gets reparations?  All black people?  Even the ones who came here from Europe or Africa in the last decade or two?  Do they only go to black people who can prove their ancestry back past the Civil War, or segregation, or what?  Where's the line?

And then who's next in line?  Native Americans, sure.  What about the Irish immigrants who were treated like shit?  The Chinese?  Etc, etc?

This is Pandora's Box and it needs to stay closed, imo.

 

"OK, we'll give some land to the niggers and the chinks...but we don't want any Irish".

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

 

So, I'm not sure how anybody came up with an cost estimate.  Has somebody proposed a dollar-per-person amount? 

This country is full of people that have multi-generational wealth.  If any of that wealth came via slavery, then those motherfuckers need to pay a tax.  A hefty fucking tax. 

So you wanna take money from the relatives of people who were doing something legally sanctioned in the US until 1862 ?  This is a gov't reparation.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

We need to build a society where reparations isn’t even a discussable thing.    We’ve got a ways to go IMO. 

Edited July 10, 2019 by Hugo Stiglitz

[TexasMan 10949]

No

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

 

"OK, we'll give some land to the niggers and the chinks...but we don't want any Irish".

You have no idea what my people have been thru you bastard......

[Gil Bang 25985]

 

So you wanna take money from the relatives of people who were doing something legally sanctioned in the US until 1862 ?  This is a gov't reparation.

Yeah. 

If you're a rich fuck  because your daddy was a rich fuck,  because his daddy was a rich fuck, because HIS daddy was a rich fuck, because he got free labor, sorry asshole, you're gonna have to give up some of your great, great grandpappy's cash.  Get a fucking job, Beauregard. 

[TexArcher 37997]

 

I’m for it as long as France includes reparations for the decedents of the huguenots which my family was a part of.

I mean, yeah.  My family history is English.  So do I get to collect from the French because of the brutality of the Norman invasion?  Or is almost a thousand years ago beyond the statute of limitations?  Or do I owe money to India and half the rest of the world because of English colonialism?  

How do we even begin to add up the ledgers of history and make everybody whole?

[elfenix 34331]

i don't know that it solves any current problems and i can easily see how it makes things a lot worse.  i'm with hugo - it'd be better to build a society where people don't feel the need to discuss reparations. 

Edited July 10, 2019 by elfenix

[Gil Bang 25985]

BTW, a while back I peeked at the texags reparations thread. 

A poster there said it would be a waste, because "they" would spend the money on "shiny shoes".

Don't be like a texags poster. 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

 

Yeah. 

If you're a rich fuck  because your daddy was a rich fuck,  because his daddy was a rich fuck, because HIS daddy was a rich fuck, because he got free labor, sorry asshole, you're gonna have to give up some of your great, great grandpappy's cash.  Get a fucking job, Beauregard. 

Sorry I disagree, that opens everything up to anyone as a reparations situation. The gov't made it legal. The gov't is the reason slavery became institutionalized.  Not Joe bob living in Mississippi.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

 

I mean, yeah.  My family history is English.  So do I get to collect from the French because of the brutality of the Norman invasion?  Or is almost a thousand years ago beyond the statute of limitations?  Or do I owe money to India and half the rest of the world because of English colonialism?  

How do we even begin to add up the ledgers of history and make everybody whole?

Ahh, so you owe me for the potato famine and me\y family getting tossed of my land.  Now we're getting somewhere.

[elfenix 34331]

 

Sorry I disagree, that opens everything up to anyone as a reparations situation. The gov't made it legal. The gov't is the reason slavery became institutionalized.  Not Joe bob living in Mississippi. 

joe bob in mississippi who was the biggest landowner in the state, had more slaves than anyone else, and the senators answered 'yes sir' to him was just an innocent in this. it was that damn government that sanctioned his family's peculiar institution!

[RomaVicta 29955]

Let's e'erbody compare victimologies. Who had it the worst either in this life or vicariously through an ancestor?

 

I only say that there are still consequences to the wicked policy of slavery. You see it in the ghettos and the cycle of poverty. I'd love to see a plan to help more people trapped in the cycle escape it. I wouldn't mind putting a hundred billion into a good plan.

If the good plan makes a case for sending checks, I would surely consider it.

I don't think much of any such consideration being dismissed as giving away free shit as though no problem can be addressed by expenditure. It's as dull-minded as thinking everything can be improved by doubling spending.

I'm not smart enough to know an answer. The question is indeed too general and ill-defined.

[bad_teammate 13221]

This thread is like a honeypot trap for everyone on my ignore list lol

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

1 minute ago, elfenix said:

joe bob in mississippi who was the biggest landowner in the state, had more slaves than anyone else, and the senators answered 'yes sir' to him was just an innocent in this. it was that damn government that sanctioned his family's peculiar institution!

That's chicken and egg stuff. Slavery was legal in the country before he became a slave owner in all likely cases.  You can't make something legal, and then change the law, and then make people pay for that repealed law.

[Gil Bang 25985]

6 minutes ago, elfenix said:

joe bob in mississippi who was the biggest landowner in the state, had more slaves than anyone else, and the senators answered 'yes sir' to him was just an innocent in this. it was that damn government that sanctioned his family's peculiar institution!

the government basically put that bullwhip in his hand and forced him to rape those women that he "owned"

[elfenix 34331]

2 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

That's chicken and egg stuff. Slavery was legal in the country before he became a slave owner in all likely cases.  You can't make something legal, and then change the law, and then make people pay for that repealed law.

the government was just a bunch of wealthy old white men passing policies to mostly benefit themselves and their heirs.  pretending that the government is some externally imposed other rather than an integral part of civil society is one of the dumbest parts of modern conservatism. 

and you sure as shit can do it.  the question is whether it's a good idea or not, not whether it can be done. 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

1 minute ago, Gil Bang said:

the government basically put that bullwhip in his hand and forced him to rape those women that he "owned"

The gov't didn't involve itself in what slaveholders did. It was too busy killing Indians by the village, tribe and nation.

[Gil Bang 25985]

Just now, BurntEyes said:

Italian and Jewish immigrants were treated pretty shitty too.

What about indentured servants?

You kinda forgot the Japanese, and certain camps not found inside Axis borders.

Also, who's paying? All US citizens? What about immigrants post slavery?

Yeah this box just gets messy as hell.

Opening it would do nothing but further tribalism which is the last thing this country needs.

Italians and jews weren't brought here in chains and beaten with whips and bred like cattle, you simple twit.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

1 minute ago, elfenix said:

the government was just a bunch of wealthy old white men passing policies to mostly benefit themselves and their heirs.  pretending that the government is some externally imposed other rather than an integral part of civil society is one of the dumbest parts of modern conservatism. 

and you sure as shit can do it.  the question is whether it's a good idea or not, not whether it can be done. 

That has nothing to do with the legal issue of reparations. They were the gov't, and it was legal.  End of story.

Roma Victa has the best thoughts on the questions we should be asking about what form reparations (if any) should or could possibly take.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

Slavery was a horrendous institution. So was the genocide of the native Americans.

[EuroHorn 3268]

 

[Gil Bang 25985]

The Japanese got totally fucked in the 40's.    

They seem to have recovered OK.   They were few in numbers.  They still have generational wealth.

Very few black folk benefit from generational wealth.   And those that benefit from multi-generational wealth are so few that they almost don't exist.

Tons of white folk are living off money made generations ago. 

 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

Just now, Gil Bang said:

The Japanese got totally fucked in the 40's.    

They seem to have recovered OK.   They were few in numbers.  They still have generational wealth.

Very few black folk benefit from generational wealth.   And those that benefit from multi-generational wealth are so few that they almost don't exist.

Tons of white folk are living off money made generations ago. 

 

A ton huh ?  How many people / what % of people in the country owned slaves ?  The more you know .........  Then there are the black slave owners, an even smaller subset.

[David Dennison 18941]

33 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Agin it.

 

Tex archer spells it out pretty well. If we're going to give black folks money then logically the native Americans are due a shit load as well, if not more. Our gov't genocided them out of existence in some cases.

Honkies have a lot to answer for.

[bolverk 29705]

So, I got my DNA results a while back and --  to my astonishment -- I'm 2% Mali. I suppose my Irish ancestors, who were escaping the Potato Famine in the 1840s and who lived in squalor for decades in New Orleans' Irish Channel, did some miscegenation back in the day.

Y'ALL OWE ME!

But seriously, as others above have said, I'll need a clear definition of what the exact reparations would be in order to honestly answer this poll. There's no doubt that, as a class, Blacks are still carrying the burdens of slavery and Jim Crow on their shoulders today, but I don't think cutting checks without a discernible plan is the answer.

Edited July 10, 2019 by bolverk
good gawd my language skills have seriously degraded since I turned 48 last month

[Bruh Man 3160]

https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2018/07/black-white-wealth-gap-inheritance/565640/

[Dbeasy 15077]

39 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Agin it.

 

Tex archer spells it out pretty well. If we're going to give black folks money then logically the native Americans are due a shit load as well, if not more. Our gov't genocided them out of existence in some cases.

And what about the unfortunate white people who were reverse discriminated against and had to settle for Brown instead of Harvard, leading to them settling for a money management role in their father-in-laws firm, instead of a far more lucrative Wall Street investment banker job? We probably owe them $5 mil each. The 

[Mojo Hand 4580]

For.  Not cutting checks per se, but targeted government investments to remediate the continuing effects of slavery and the Jim Crow era on people today.   One example might be addressing the racial gap in home ownership through special mortgage tax credits, or down payment assistance, or something else along those lines. 

[TwiceHorn 31516]

47 minutes ago, TexArcher said:

I'm left-of-center on most things, but this is a hard no for me.

First of all, the estimated cost (per PBS) is anywhere from 5 to 12 trillion dollars.  The 2019 federal budget is 4.76 trillion dollars.  It would ruin this country financially.

Secondly, who gets reparations?  All black people?  Even the ones who came here from Europe or Africa in the last decade or two?  Do they only go to black people who can prove their ancestry back past the Civil War, or segregation, or what?  Where's the line?

And then who's next in line?  Native Americans, sure.  What about the Irish immigrants who were treated like shit?  The Chinese?  Etc, etc?

This is Pandora's Box and it needs to stay closed, imo.

 

You're right that the administrative burdens and the shitshow that would produce pretty much outweigh any moral justification and are a manifestation of the attenuation of the whole thing.  It's too damned late, basically.

There is no country on earth that lacks a history of discrimination against some group.  Is there a precedent for reparations somewhere?

[David Dennison 18941]

Just now, Mojo Hand said:

For.  Not cutting checks per se, but targeted government investments to remediate the continuing effects of slavery and the Jim Crow era on people today.   One example might be addressing the racial gap in home ownership through special mortgage tax credits, or down payment assistance, or something else along those lines. 

Other examples:

Disparity in incarceration rates, unemployment rates, education rates, mortality, infant mortality, poverty, hunger, etc., etc.

 

[WhatTheBuck 28794]

Let's restore the Voting Rights Act first.

[David Dennison 18941]

Just now, TwiceHorn said:

You're right that the administrative burdens and the shitshow that would produce pretty much outweigh any moral justification and are a manifestation of the attenuation of the whole thing.  It's too damned late, basically.

There is no country on earth that lacks a history of discrimination against some group.  Is there a precedent for reparations somewhere?

The Holocaust.

[Bruh Man 3160]

12 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Slavery was a horrendous institution. So was the genocide of the native Americans.

This is not just about slavery. It's also about the 150+ years of economic terrorism AA's faced in this country after they were "freed". Hell, survivors of BWS are still alive. 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

1 minute ago, Bruh Man said:

This is not just about slavery. It's also about the 150+ years of economic terrorism AA's faced in this country after they were "freed". Hell, survivors of BWS are still alive. 

Very true, and the effects of genocide of native Americans is still being felt today. 

Cutting checks is not something I agree with, but other forms mentioned above seem a better, and potenially more successful way of helping right the wrongs of slavery and Jim Crow.

 

[bolverk 29705]

15 minutes ago, Bruh Man said:

https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2018/07/black-white-wealth-gap-inheritance/565640/

I have no doubt this is true, and it's a terrible injustice. I'm not opposed (at all) for us to develop a program for attempting to rectify the wealth gap (Chris Rock's "rich" versus "wealthy" bit comes to mind), but I've seen first-hand what simply sending out checks does.

Take Alaska for example. Every year, each man, woman, and child gets, on average, about $1500 a year from their oil revenue. From an economic development perspective, it's done very little to advance the well-being of their citizenry and I imagine that a federal cash-based reparations program would end up being something like that. But, back to Alaska, the public officials (at the local level) I've spoken to were very envious in how the state of Texas has used our oil wealth to expand and diversify our economy through strategic investments in our universities, research, technology, education, and healthcare (Texas Medical Center) so that we're not so dependent on just oil and gas.

I would proposed that if we did come up with a reparations plan it would should be very targeted and strategic in the way that it can tangibly transform the well-being of America's Black citizens for the decades into the future.

Edited July 10, 2019 by bolverk