For or against reparations?

[Gil Bang 25984]

21 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

A ton huh ?  How many people / what % of people in the country owned slaves ?  The more you know .........  Then there are the black slave owners, an even smaller subset.

I don't give a fuck if there are only 10 of them.  Those 10 need to pay.

Quote

 

 

[SimonBolivar 10958]

3 minutes ago, bolverk said:

I have no doubt this is true, and it's a terrible injustice. I'm not opposed (at all) for us to develop a program for attempting to rectify the wealth gap (Chris Rock's "rich" versus "wealthy" bit comes to mind), but I've seen first-hand what simply sending out checks does.

Take Alaska for example. Every year, each man, woman, and child gets, on average, about $1500 a year from their oil revenue. From an economic development perspective, it's done very little to advance the well-being of their citizenry and I imagine that a federal cash-based reparations program would end up being something like that. But, back to Alaska, the public officials (at the local level) I've spoken to were very envious in how the state of Texas has used our oil wealth to expand and diversify our economy.

I would proposed that if we did come up with a reparations plan it would should be very targeted and strategic in the way that it can tangibly transform the well-being of America's Black citizens for the decades into the future.

HBCU's have horribly low endowments generally. I'd start there.

[David Dennison 18940]

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/06/the-case-for-reparations/361631/

[TornACL 7722]

I've never been a big supporter of reparations, because it's another example of treating the symptoms and not the illness. What's the point of making reparations if you're still putting people in shitty schools and letting policemen shoot them for driving on an expired license?  It's just bullshit window dressing.

That said, at this point I'm in favor of anything that causes outrage among uptight conservative racist assholes.

Edited July 10, 2019 by TornACL

[David Dennison 18940]

1 minute ago, TornACL said:

I've never been a big supporter of reparations, because it's another example of treating the symptoms and not the illness. What's the point of making reparations if you're still putting people in shitty schools and letting policemen shoot them for driving on an expired license?  It's just bullshit window dressing.

That said, at this point I'm in favor of anything that causes outrage among uptight conservative racist assholes.

How bout this. 

No white people on juries anymore.

Ever.

Kidding.

Sorta.

[WhatTheBuck 28794]

5 minutes ago, TornACL said:

I've never been a big supporter of reparations, because it's another example of treating the symptoms and not the illness. What's the point of making reparations if you're still putting people in shitty schools and letting policemen shoot them for driving on an expired license?  It's just bullshit window dressing.

That said, at this point I'm in favor of anything that causes outrage among uptight conservative racist assholes.

Except it would give uptight conservative racist assholes an excuse to claim that racism doesn't exist anymore because "reparations!"

[Gil Bang 25984]

55 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Sorry I disagree, that opens everything up to anyone as a reparations situation. The gov't made it legal. The gov't is the reason slavery became institutionalized.  Not Joe bob living in Mississippi.

Did the government "make it legal", or did the government fail to make it "illegal"?

Does something have to be illegal to be 100% wrong?   If you catch me fucking your wife, I'm gonna tell you "the government made it legal for me to fuck your wife".   How's that gonna fly?  I suppose the government of Nazi Germany "made it legal" to mass-murder jews.  So, it's OK and nobody should pay for that?

[Rougarou 594]

I'm on some tax free shit by any means
Whether bound to hit scheme or some counterfeit CREAM

[NowThis 931]

1 hour ago, Gil Bang said:

The Japanese got totally fucked in the 40's.    

They seem to have recovered OK.   They were few in numbers.  They still have generational wealth.

Very few black folk benefit from generational wealth.   And those that benefit from multi-generational wealth are so few that they almost don't exist.

Tons of white folk are living off money made generations ago. 

 

so much of this is real estate passed on from grandma onwards.  Whites have the best real estate which swells in value, blacks have negative growth real estate I guess. Whites also own their shit free and clear, blacks probably don't and if so, it's worth nothing. 

How many stories do you know where people inherited their family homes? An uncle who never married, no kids, dies and leaves his $700k home to the nephew in his will  - (actual story of a friend, the nephew). 

[Gil Bang 25984]

I often (not as often as I would like) sell a house that somebody inherited, and doesn't really give two shits about, other than "when do I get my money"

[Gil Bang 25984]

2 minutes ago, NowThis said:

so much of this is real estate passed on from grandma onwards.  Whites have the best real estate which swells in value, blacks have negative growth real estate I guess. Whites also own their shit free and clear, blacks probably don't and if so, it's worth nothing. 

How many stories do you know where people inherited their family homes? An uncle who never married, no kids, dies and leaves his $700k home to the nephew in his will  - (actual story of a friend, the nephew). 

and my ex-wife is an only child, and her dad is very old (mom is dead) and he will leave her his free-and-clear home.   And she'll probably bitch about it, because she's a miserable cunt. 

[David Dennison 18940]

1 minute ago, NowThis said:

so much of this is real estate passed on from grandma onwards.  Whites have the best real estate which swells in value, blacks have negative growth real estate I guess. Whites also own their shit free and clear, blacks probably don't and if so, it's worth nothing. 

How many stories do you know where people inherited their family homes? An uncle who never married, no kids, dies and leaves his $700k home to the nephew in his will  - (actual story of a friend, the nephew). 

Yep. Housing discrimination and racism has done wonders for white real property values.

[Blotto 23560]

If I'm the GOP, I can think of no other issue I would rather see take center stage in 2020 than reparations. It will rabidly motivate about 99% of their base, while discourage a large number of democratic voters. The chance of thoughtful policy discussions coming from our politicians is basically zero. It will be a shitshow. 

[David Dennison 18940]

3 minutes ago, Blotto said:

If I'm the GOP, I can think of no other issue I would rather see take center stage in 2020 than reparations. It will rabidly motivate about 99% of their base, while discourage a large number of democratic voters. The chance of thoughtful policy discussions coming from our politicians is basically zero. It will be a shitshow. 

Well, we certainly don't want to upset white people. They've been through so much.

[bad_teammate 13221]

A massive influx of cash into the black community wouldn't ruin America financially, it would improve America's financial situation tremendously.

People who argue about our economy like it's a household budget are beyond useless.

[Goredho 17413]

If we are talking, "Here's your $X monthly check", then no.

If we are talking about measures to break down the artificial barriers that still exist to relegate the African American a second-class citizen, then absolutely fucking yes.

Lets start with making it easy for all citizens to cast a fucking vote.

Edited July 10, 2019 by Goredho

[DixonHur 11345]

How much are the African nations where slaves were captured for sale chipping in?

The whole topic of reparations is ridiculous.  Nearly everyone in the world can trace their roots through slavery, oppression, and/or brutal conquest.  

We're barely a generation from the civil rights movement.  How quickly do you think any of those other groups were on equal footing with the descendants of their masters?  

Instead of trying to fix the past, we need to focus on fixing the things standing in the way of success.

 

[Js1 85451]

2 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

How much are the African nations where slaves were captured for sale chipping in?

The whole topic of reparations is ridiculous.  Nearly everyone in the world can trace their roots through slavery, oppression, and/or brutal conquest.  

We're barely a generation from the civil rights movement.  How quickly do you think any of those other groups were on equal footing with the descendants of their masters?  

Instead of trying to fix the past, we need to focus on fixing the things standing in the way of success.

 

See the post above yours. It’s not just free money. It’s breaking down the barriers that are preventing an entire race from accumulating wealth and equal opportunity. For Christ sakes, we do everything possible to dilute their vote or making it nearly impossible for them to vote. 

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

1 hour ago, Gil Bang said:

I don't give a fuck if there are only 10 of them.  Those 10 need to pay.

 

Sigh. Yeah. The legacy of discrimination is the sole preserve of southern slaveholders. Not northern slave brokers or insurers, nor northern and western slumlords, nor northern and western redliners, nor those in northern and western states who banned freedmen to moving there, nor the Irish who rioted in New York and murdered blacks and burned black orphanges, nor the northern MLB owners who banned blacks from playing until Jackie Robinson, nor the Hollywood producers who barred blacks from playing anything but mammies and Stepin Fetchits for 50 or 60 years, and on and on and on and on. Hell, Gil, if your family got here before 1800 or so, it doesn't matter a bit if you have a drop of southern ancestry, there might well be slaveholders in your woodpile. 

It's an American problem, not a regional one. 

Edited July 10, 2019 by MaybeACoordinator

[Goredho 17413]

Have to say I posted "it depends" after knee-jerk clicking "No".  I am pretty sure that is by design.  A certain political party benefits if everyone thinks of reparations as simply being cash money to black people.

[zork 629]

They need to ask this at the next democrat debate.

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

1 minute ago, zork said:

They need to ask this at the next democrat debate.

Trust me, "the liberal media" will. This is exactly the kind of poison pill issue they like to taint Democrats with to maintain the status quo. 

[Texas73 421]

2 minutes ago, zork said:

They need to ask this at the next democrat debate.

democrat is a noun, democratic is an adjective

[zork 629]

1 minute ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

Trust me, "the liberal media" will. This is exactly the kind of poison pill issue they like to taint Democrats with to maintain the status quo. 

Then a follow up about to all of them who raise their hands on what it entails, the specifics if you will.

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

1 minute ago, zork said:

Then a follow up about to all of them who raise their hands on what it entails, the specifics if you will.

Yep.

I really don't understand how this has become an issue again. This is not the first go-round for reparations. 

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

RG Ratcliffe, recently retired Texas political writer, posted this on FB today:

 

Quote

The reason I support some form of reparations to the descendants of slaves is that I once knew a white Republican named Kyle Thompson.

Kyle had been the UPI bureau chief in Austin, an aide to the late Republican U.S. Senator John Tower, and the editorial page editor of the Fort Worth Star-Telegram. But as a teenager, he was taken prisoner by the Japaneseas a member of the Texas-based 2nd Battalion, 131st Field Artillery, also known as the "Lost Battalion."

At the threat of bullets, bayonets and clubs, Kyle was forced to labor on the Death Railroad, more commonly known as the Bridge over the River Kwai railroad. Lawyers call it forced labor, but it was slave labor. He lived on a starvation diet and developed tropical diseases in Burma. A wound on his leg festered down to the bone. Some might say Kyle was not a slave because he was a POW who might hope that freedom would come with the end of the war. But he could not think of the war ending when his daily battle was one of survival.

In his autobiography, Kyle quoted the Japanese officer in charge of his camp in Burma: "We will build the railroad if we have to build it over the white man's body. It gives me great pleasure to have a fast-moving defeated nation in my power. You are merely rubble but I will not feel bad because it is [the fault of ] your rulers. If you want anything, you will have to come through me . . . and there will be many of you who will not see your homes again. Work cheerfully at my command."

Yes, it was racist, but understandable, that Kyle developed a burning hatred of the Japanese. Kyle was 20 when he was taken prisoner; almost 25 when he was released.

Several decades had passed when I met Kyle, but his fervor was high. He felt cheated because the United States government had signed a treaty preventing individual U.S. citizens from obtaining reparations from Japan for the harm inflicted on them. He helped organize former POW in lawsuits trying to overturn what he saw as a basic injustice. And he died believing he had been denied something owed to him for his hardship.

So for me it is easy to see how the feelings of injustice have been transmitted from one generation to another among African Americans, from slave to freemen to generations of people who lived in the fear of lynching and economic oppression. There are many technical problems with how any form of reparation for slavey and the Jim Crow era should be handled and why just the descendants fo slaves when the United States so mistreated native Americans, Chinese immigrants, and Japanese-Americans in WWII. But slavery was America's original sin, baked into the Constitution with such an element of shame that the word is not even used to describe the system it legalized.

I never talked to Kyle about reparations for slavery before he died. Now, I wish I had. I know others among my Facebook friends knew Kyle, and I'm wondering whether any of them did.

 

[David Dennison 18940]

9 minutes ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

Trust me, "the liberal media" will. This is exactly the kind of poison pill issue they like to taint Democrats with to maintain the status quo. 

The great thing about the the status quo is that it will inevitably change. 

There will be a reckoning one day in this country. If not, it means the United States of America no longer exists as a nation state.

[tantric superman 4667]

2 hours ago, Mojo Hand said:

For.  Not cutting checks per se, but targeted government investments to remediate the continuing effects of slavery and the Jim Crow era on people today.   One example might be addressing the racial gap in home ownership through special mortgage tax credits, or down payment assistance, or something else along those lines. 

I'm in favor of any rational program that is color-blind and needs based or based on economic disparity.

[TexArcher 37992]

19 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

A massive influx of cash into the black community wouldn't ruin America financially, it would improve America's financial situation tremendously.

People who argue about our economy like it's a household budget are beyond useless.

It's not that simple.  Again, the entire federal budget this year is a little under 5 trillion dollars, and that's with a deficit close to 1 trillion. 

So let's be super optimistic and say the 5 to 12 trillion dollar estimate is way off and it's only going to cost 1 or 2 trillion dollars.  Great.  Now where do you carve off 1 or 2 trillion from 5 trillion?  You want to eliminate Social Security?  Kill off the entire military budget?  Swell the deficit from 1 trillion to 2 or 3 trillion next year alone?  Do you have any idea what that'll do to the debt and future interest on it?

Whether or not this is something we should do is debatable.  Whether or not we can afford to do it is not debatable.  It doesn't matter what black folks would do with the money and how much that would help the economy if the money to give the black folks literally does not exist.  We can't just print a few trillion dollars and hand it out.

[Fudge Nuggets 19209]

2 hours ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Cutting checks is not something I agree with, but other forms mentioned above seem a better, and potenially more successful way of helping right the wrongs of slavery and Jim Crow.

 

And when the debate switches to the other forms you will rail against them too because, “muh taxes”.

[David Dennison 18940]

1 minute ago, Fudge Nuggets said:

And when the debate switches to the other forms you will rail against them too because, “muh taxes”.

Other forms like affirmative action, which inevitably turns into, "muh reverse racism."

 

[TwiceHorn 31515]

2 hours ago, David Dennison said:

The Holocaust.

Forgot about that.  Somewhat different in that it was somewhat concomitant with war reparations and the reparations weren't paid by Germany to its own citizens, but rather to another country entirely.

[David Dennison 18940]

5 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Forgot about that.  Somewhat different in that it was somewhat concomitant with war reparations and the reparations weren't paid by Germany to its own citizens, but rather to another country entirely.

There's also this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Liberties_Act_of_1988

[Bruh Man 3160]

2 hours ago, bolverk said:

I have no doubt this is true, and it's a terrible injustice. I'm not opposed (at all) for us to develop a program for attempting to rectify the wealth gap (Chris Rock's "rich" versus "wealthy" bit comes to mind), but I've seen first-hand what simply sending out checks does.

Take Alaska for example. Every year, each man, woman, and child gets, on average, about $1500 a year from their oil revenue. From an economic development perspective, it's done very little to advance the well-being of their citizenry and I imagine that a federal cash-based reparations program would end up being something like that. But, back to Alaska, the public officials (at the local level) I've spoken to were very envious in how the state of Texas has used our oil wealth to expand and diversify our economy through strategic investments in our universities, research, technology, education, and healthcare (Texas Medical Center) so that we're not so dependent on just oil and gas.

I would proposed that if we did come up with a reparations plan it would should be very targeted and strategic in the way that it can tangibly transform the well-being of America's Black citizens for the decades into the future.

At the end of the day reparations is a repayment of a debt. I don't think we  (I'm including myself in this even though I'm black b/c I'm not a descendent of slaves) should concern ourselves with how the debt is repaid. Jews/Japs got $$$, not special programs, and did fine.  

[Bruh Man 3160]

39 minutes ago, TexArcher said:

It's not that simple.  Again, the entire federal budget this year is a little under 5 trillion dollars, and that's with a deficit close to 1 trillion. 

So let's be super optimistic and say the 5 to 12 trillion dollar estimate is way off and it's only going to cost 1 or 2 trillion dollars.  Great.  Now where do you carve off 1 or 2 trillion from 5 trillion?  You want to eliminate Social Security?  Kill off the entire military budget?  Swell the deficit from 1 trillion to 2 or 3 trillion next year alone?  Do you have any idea what that'll do to the debt and future interest on it?

Whether or not this is something we should do is debatable.  Whether or not we can afford to do it is not debatable.  It doesn't matter what black folks would do with the money and how much that would help the economy if the money to give the black folks literally does not exist.  We can't just print a few trillion dollars and hand it out.

The fact that the richest country in the world cannot afford the price tag for reparations is proof in of itself how much reparations are deserved. 

We find a way to not blink an eye when we increase the military budget or give the wealthy tax breaks...we can find a way to do this. Maybe not trillions of dollars but a smaller amount + housing programs is doable. 

[bad_teammate 13221]

50 minutes ago, TexArcher said:

It's not that simple.  Again, the entire federal budget this year is a little under 5 trillion dollars, and that's with a deficit close to 1 trillion. 

Don't say shit like "It's not that simple" after some blanket statement about ruining the economy (whatever the hell that even means).

Quote

So let's be super optimistic and say the 5 to 12 trillion dollar estimate is way off and it's only going to cost 1 or 2 trillion dollars.  Great.  Now where do you carve off 1 or 2 trillion from 5 trillion?

 

Why would we need to carve it off?

The "we have to run a balanced budget" argument should be printed out on paper, rolled up tightly, and inserted anally.

Quote

Swell the deficit from 1 trillion to 2 or 3 trillion next year alone?

If it's an investment that will improve the lives of Americans and will deliver more value into the actual, Main Street economy than it takes out, then fucking absolutely, 100%.

Quote

  Do you have any idea what that'll do to the debt and future interest on it?

If it doesn't cause hyperinflation (which we have many tools to avoid anyway) and it adds value as an investment, then why the fuck would I care about the national debt?

lol imagine living in 2019 and thinking the national debt matters. Jesus

[David Dennison 18940]

11 minutes ago, Bruh Man said:

The fact that the richest country in the world cannot afford the price tag for reparations is proof in of itself how much reparations are deserved. 

We find a way to not blink an eye when we increase the military budget or give the wealthy tax breaks...we can find a way to do this. Maybe not trillions of dollars but a smaller amount + housing programs is doable. 

It's absolutely doable. White people just aren't having it. That's that.

[Satchel 6939]

4 hours ago, TexArcher said:

Vote, discuss.

Will you define what they are before we vote?

[TexArcher 37992]

33 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

If it doesn't cause hyperinflation (which we have many tools to avoid anyway) and it adds value as an investment, then why the fuck would I care about the national debt?

lol imagine living in 2019 and thinking the national debt matters. Jesus

Sigh.  Interest on the debt is very close to passing defense spending in our annual budget for third-highest expenditure.  Think about that.  We have the largest and most powerful military in the history of the planet, and just the interest on the debt will cost us more, every year, forever.  And you want to throw a few trillion more on top of that debt?

And even if you were correct that spending an extra two trillion dollars isn't a problem, where does it come from?

Printing another two trillion is a really bad idea for obvious reasons.  Issuing another two trillion in treasuries and selling them to China is a really bad idea for obvious reasons.

So?  

 

[Fastbreak 3989]

[BrazilHorn 6624]

I’m against. 

Just don’t see how it makes sense or how you could ever truly measure impact. 

Then do you do it for American Indians that were forcibly moved from land to reservations?

Horrible shit has happened in history. 

[52-80 19211]

hi

 

where do i sign up for free money?

 

 

(sorry for my english)

[tx 3 putt 77249]

any living Slave should get a settlement 

[DigglerontheHoof 21208]

I'd be for it if the reparations were limited to direct descendants of slaves and paid for by direct descendants of slave owners.  

Under that very limited scope, I'm all in.  Otherwise, fuck that shit.   My ancestors were poor white trash who became, and were, sharecroppers up through the 40s.  

 

[Js1 85451]

I refuse to respond to the poll because it's not a "yes" or "no" answer without defining reparations.  Also no EABOD options so your poll is invalid. 

[Mojo Hand 4580]

1 hour ago, DigglerontheHoof said:

I'd be for it if the reparations were limited to direct descendants of slaves and paid for by direct descendants of slave owners.  

Under that very limited scope, I'm all in.  Otherwise, fuck that shit.   My ancestors were poor white trash who became, and were, sharecroppers up through the 40s.  

 

All of my ancestors came to America in the early 1900s and had to start from scratch in New York slums after escaping Eastern Europe with nothing but their lives.   They faced heavy discrimination outside of their insular communities.   But even that was a huge head start over the children and grandchildren of slaves. And at least my ancestors were allowed to have their insular communities, which were not destroyed by government policy.  At least my ancestors got to choose to come here and face what they faced.

I don't view this as a matter of "genetic" responsibility or justice, but rather the continuing generational consequences of unique atrocities by the United States.   As I see it, the U.S. as a country is built on the decimation and systematic oppression of two groups of people who didn't choose their lot:   Native Americans and Black people.   It is unique among all subgroups of Americans and was inescapable for their descendants in a way that it hasn't been for any others. 

We've given some reparations to Native Americans, and some small degree to black people, but not nearly enough to either.  Sure, I'll be on the hook as a taxpayer even though I didn't oppress anyone in America (nor did any of my ancestors), but I also had a huge advantage in life that was built on the blood of Native Americans and the backs of slaves and victims of Jim Crow, and I had huge advantages over their descendants in modern society.  I have no personal guilt about that, but as inheritors of the American legacy, I think we are all responsible for remediating the continuing harm to other Americans that is also part of that legacy. 

Edited July 10, 2019 by Mojo Hand

[Js1 85451]

I'm also on the hook for Trump tax cuts that benefit the 1% and corporations and didn't do shit for the average person.  Oh and the Bush tax cuts. And the Middle Eastern wars. 

But ooooooh, giving a leg up to the black community for a hundred years of slavery + another hundred years of Jim Crow + fighting tooth and nail to continue to screw them by gutting the VRA and allowing Republicans to enact voter suppression to keep them from having a voice?  THAT IS SO BAD. 

[seven 1367]

I'd be OK with black votes and census population being worth say... 1 and 3/5ths that of whites with some cut off in the next few hundred years. 

[Guest]

13 hours ago, Gil Bang said:

So, I'm not sure how anybody came up with an cost estimate.  Has somebody proposed a dollar-per-person amount? 

This country is full of people that have multi-generational wealth.  If any of that wealth came via slavery, then those motherfuckers need to pay a tax.  A hefty fucking tax. 

You own land that belonged to someone else, almost certainly stolen from them or won in war at some point.

 

Edited July 10, 2019 by slorch

[David Dennison 18940]

5 minutes ago, slorch said:

You own land that belonged to someone else, almost certainly stolen from them or won in war at some point.

pay up motherfucker.

This is a great argument for state reparations for displaced individuals.

Well done.